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K: No, it was only the two of us.

D: Has anyone else seen the two of you together at this time?

·K: I suppose there could have been a lot of the blacks that saw us together. But wether we will be able to identify them or not, there is eight or nine of those. And even if they did see us we used to talk or walk away and then talk, the type of training that we kept amongst ourselves. We sometimes might sit, you know, revelations about Buthelezi, which he gave to me on a personal basis: his health, his fear of witch doctors and things like that, which will be genuinly interested or all of interest to the general public. But this was personal conversations.

D: As you may knowhas denied that a conversation like this has taken place.

K: Yes, I have seen that in newspapers.

D: Let's say that it has just slipped out of his mind. Is there anything special that can remind him that this conversation has happened.

K: Yes, I think something that will remind him very strongly of that could be the name, because he gave it to me when I asked him who this man was, then he gave the name, you know, in this conversation and then he offered, he actually, without me asking him for it, he gave me the address and the telephone numbers, so if you are overseas or you go to Turkey, contact the man.

Ö: Was he aware of this name in his mind?

K: No, it is like I know the brigadier, it's like .. it is not that he is going to scratch around and look for names, it is like let's go and have a beer, you know it's, it is with ease, it is knowledge.

To come back to your previous question I want to answer that Oh, I think what will activate his memory very much is that he is sittingLast year, on various occasions, I phoned him, and then if you look at my cell phone at that account, I'm phoning him in Cape Town on his cell phone. I phoned him in parliament where he was sitting, asking what was going on. So, there was this openess amongst us. Asking him on various occasions if he could give me that name again and he said, well, he can't do that now. Then I phoned him about two, three months ago, and I said, "Listen, did you get me the name?". And he said:"Listen, I don't know, I can't remember the name. But the people who know everything of the whole operation is a