This is the record of the interrogation of horticulturalisi JONATHAN James Leontsinis:HB 17676
HBI 77837 HBE-7832
Leonisinis runs a horticulture business in the above address. The interrogation is being conducted at the Swedish limbassy in on Wednesday 16 October 1996. beginning at 10.45. Leading the interrogation is Detective Superintendent Ilans Olietro. Ells present is Cheil Prosecutor Jan Danielsson.
The interrogation is being recorded on tape.
Leontsinis is being interrogated in connection with the so-called “ South African lead". His name came up as a result of interrogations of other people.
Ü - Ülebro D) Danielsson
- Leonisinis
Ü:
Yes. Mr Leontsinis, I would like to ask you to give us a briei information about yourself.
.1:
I'm a horticulturalisi. bom in
Is ciucated in this country. I spent three years in Australia. working is a horiculturalist is él...or it selularship. I returned and I went and studied atfor alle peur. I travelled in South America for tlurce vcars. I returned to
and artei ni nusiness, Which I still operate. Would you like more detail?
Ö:
Well. we are most interested in the middle of the cighties: I mean the murder of Mr Palme was in 1986 in February, so if you can tell us where you here all that time.
| was in at the time. I believe I was in
all the time of Olof Palme's death. ...ves I'm almost certain of that. It's almost certain. I can't say I'm one hundred per cent certain, but I'm pretty certain: I was ini
all that time. While
HBL
1
wa
HED
This is the record of the interrogation of horticulturalisi JONATHAN James Leontsinis:HB 17676
HBI 77837 HBE-7832
Leonisinis runs a horticulture business in the above address. The interrogation is being conducted at the Swedish limbassy in on Wednesday 16 October 1996. beginning at 10.45. Leading the interrogation is Detective Superintendent Ilans Olietro. Ells present is Cheil Prosecutor Jan Danielsson.
The interrogation is being recorded on tape.
Leontsinis is being interrogated in connection with the so-called “ South African lead". His name came up as a result of interrogations of other people.
Ü - Ülebro D) Danielsson
- Leonisinis
Ü:
Yes. Mr Leontsinis, I would like to ask you to give us a briei information about yourself.
.1:
I'm a horticulturalisi. bom in
Is ciucated in this country. I spent three years in Australia. working is a horiculturalist is él...or it selularship. I returned and I went and studied atfor alle peur. I travelled in South America for tlurce vcars. I returned to
and artei ni nusiness, Which I still operate. Would you like more detail?
Ö:
Well. we are most interested in the middle of the cighties: I mean the murder of Mr Palme was in 1986 in February, so if you can tell us where you here all that time.
| was in at the time. I believe I was in
all the time of Olof Palme's death. ...ves I'm almost certain of that. It's almost certain. I can't say I'm one hundred per cent certain, but I'm pretty certain: I was ini
He hased the roads because they were badly signposted: leivas always getting lost. And eventually he said...he told me that what he would really like to do is go to live in and
said "that's ridiculous, you know. You can'l. 1 mean how will you live? You can't." And he said he'd write newsletters and do this and this next thing and so on. And...linow that a couple of years later he went 10
lie wiore. I think he wrote to us and told he was going lo und the
that he had been in
D:
And that was the last you heard of him?
A:
Yes.
Ö:
Anc if I ask you to teli us about his opinion about Sweden. It's simila: 10
or...?
A:
I would say it was, yes. It was the same. He didn't care for Olot Palme. Let me tell you, hehe
COS
As rat think I would say that he Same reasons: he did.n't think n the country
ng
Ö:
Did he ever say that he had a
as his friend?
A
No. Not that I remember. no.
Ö:
Do you know any Swedish policemen?
No.
Ü:
The last time in Sweden there have been a lot of articles about the South African link. That's why ihis is being done down here: people liave stepped forward and said something
that they have information about the murder. Those people www been in the media in some way, do you know any one of those people?
A:
Who have been in the media where?
clone. It was
He hased the roads because they were badly signposted: leivas always getting lost. And eventually he said...he told me that what he would really like to do is go to live in and
said "that's ridiculous, you know. You can'l. 1 mean how will you live? You can't." And he said he'd write newsletters and do this and this next thing and so on. And...linow that a couple of years later he went 10
lie wiore. I think he wrote to us and told he was going lo und the
that he had been in
D:
And that was the last you heard of him?
A:
Yes.
Ö:
Anc if I ask you to teli us about his opinion about Sweden. It's simila: 10
or...?
A:
I would say it was, yes. It was the same. He didn't care for Olot Palme. Let me tell you, hehe
COS
As rat think I would say that he Same reasons: he did.n't think n the country
ng
Ö:
Did he ever say that he had a
as his friend?
A
No. Not that I remember. no.
Ö:
Do you know any Swedish policemen?
No.
Ü:
The last time in Sweden there have been a lot of articles about the South African link. That's why ihis is being done down here: people liave stepped forward and said something
that they have information about the murder. Those people www been in the media in some way, do you know any one of those people?
Of course. Of course I have. I mean everyone has read about
Ö: ·
Have you ever met him?
A:
Yes, I've met
I met him a few years ago.
Ö:
Where?
A
I think it was ala restaurant. I mean it wasn't in... It was at a restaurani. I think it was a restaurant in
but I don't know. I've met him.
D:
Is that the only time you have met luim?
A:
Yes.
D:
Were other people present too?
A:
There were people in the restaurant, yes.
D:
Yes, but in your company?
A:
Oh yes, there were... I think, yes, we were a group of people as far as I remember.
D:
Do you remember the other persons?
A:
l'on not sure if I remember the other persons. I can't remember individuals on that particular occasion, but I lave met (. I don't know if I would recognize him if I saw him now. I've seen pictures of hini in the newspaper. so I would recognize him from that, if he looked the same, if he wore glasses, like he seems to wear lieavy glasses. Yes, I would recognize him if he wore those glasses, but I don't think I would recognize him if I saw him.
D:.
Do you remember what you talked about?
A:
No. I didn't talk to him.
O:
A:
I know of him.
Ö:
Here inA:
No. No, I don't.
Ö:
You read about?
4:
Of course. Of course I have. I mean everyone has read about
Ö: ·
Have you ever met him?
A:
Yes, I've met
I met him a few years ago.
Ö:
Where?
A
I think it was ala restaurant. I mean it wasn't in... It was at a restaurani. I think it was a restaurant in
but I don't know. I've met him.
D:
Is that the only time you have met luim?
A:
Yes.
D:
Were other people present too?
A:
There were people in the restaurant, yes.
D:
Yes, but in your company?
A:
Oh yes, there were... I think, yes, we were a group of people as far as I remember.
D:
Do you remember the other persons?
A:
l'on not sure if I remember the other persons. I can't remember individuals on that particular occasion, but I lave met (. I don't know if I would recognize him if I saw him now. I've seen pictures of hini in the newspaper. so I would recognize him from that, if he looked the same, if he wore glasses, like he seems to wear lieavy glasses. Yes, I would recognize him if he wore those glasses, but I don't think I would recognize him if I saw him.
He was a criminal, I think. Wasn't he the one who was killed in the United States?
Ö:
No, he's a...it's a person who is
A:
No. I don't know bim.
Ö:
And as far as we know he's still alive.
No, well look
is not an unusual name.
Ö:
I mean,
he's been in the newspapers too.
A:
and it was
was a
No, I say that becauseAnd he... Well, heÖ:
A:
Yes, I know
/
Ö:
You know him?
A:
Yes.
Ö:
Can you tell us about...
Α:
for
I don't know him well. I know that he's a I know, that he was in about (wo years as far as I remember. I've never spoken to him about it and he has never ever said anything to me about it, but I know...I suppose you know the same, I mean I read this in a newspaper. And
That's what happened with him. And he was in What he works for now I don't know.
D:
Do you know of any connection between
and
A.
I know they knew each other, yes. They never spoke, individually. I reter xu tinem toge:her, ever. I know that was involved in some way with
in that business with the
In what way I don't know. In what way... Whether he just
Ö:
You have met him?
A:
No.
Ö:
A:
He was a criminal, I think. Wasn't he the one who was killed in the United States?
Ö:
No, he's a...it's a person who is
A:
No. I don't know bim.
Ö:
And as far as we know he's still alive.
No, well look
is not an unusual name.
Ö:
I mean,
he's been in the newspapers too.
A:
and it was
was a
No, I say that becauseAnd he... Well, heÖ:
A:
Yes, I know
/
Ö:
You know him?
A:
Yes.
Ö:
Can you tell us about...
Α:
for
I don't know him well. I know that he's a I know, that he was in about (wo years as far as I remember. I've never spoken to him about it and he has never ever said anything to me about it, but I know...I suppose you know the same, I mean I read this in a newspaper. And
That's what happened with him. And he was in What he works for now I don't know.
D:
Do you know of any connection between
and
A.
I know they knew each other, yes. They never spoke, individually. I reter xu tinem toge:her, ever. I know that was involved in some way with
in that business with the
In what way I don't know. In what way... Whether he just
l'ın not actually suire. I don't know him very well and I think... I know that
I think he them or he did something. I know that. I read about it in the newspapers and I only met a few years later and so by: then I didn't really reinember and I didn't actually ask him. I didn't ask him, you: know "were you in jail?" | just didn't
Ö.
We'll
yoon on this list.
Who?
+886 1. Ö:
No.
Ö:
ILI
A:
D:A:
No.
Ö:A:
Yes. I know hiin.
Can you
tell us about hiin? He's a Swede or...?
.
Well,
He is a friend of vine. He runs aicstaurant al it's a new development.
i place called
Ö:
In.
A:
but I mean it's in
It's, well, it is in
It's really inif you like: one of the satellite towns.
Ö:
What was the name of the restaurant?
very good
I think it's Ca very : he used to make Danish confectioner; pastries, you know Danish deli
nd now run... They live at
it's like a cluster house development. It's a...do you know what I :nean?
was
told where the offices were, because
I think
is English...is a British citizen,
l'ın not actually suire. I don't know him very well and I think... I know that
I think he them or he did something. I know that. I read about it in the newspapers and I only met a few years later and so by: then I didn't really reinember and I didn't actually ask him. I didn't ask him, you: know "were you in jail?" | just didn't
Ö.
We'll
yoon on this list.
Who?
+886 1. Ö:
No.
Ö:
ILI
A:
D:A:
No.
Ö:A:
Yes. I know hiin.
Can you
tell us about hiin? He's a Swede or...?
.
Well,
He is a friend of vine. He runs aicstaurant al it's a new development.
i place called
Ö:
In.
A:
but I mean it's in
It's, well, it is in
It's really inif you like: one of the satellite towns.
Ö:
What was the name of the restaurant?
very good
I think it's Ca very : he used to make Danish confectioner; pastries, you know Danish deli
nd now run... They live at
it's like a cluster house development. It's a...do you know what I :nean?
Aild they live in....they bought one of the cluster houses. And the development... It's still being developed: there's going to be a golf course and everything. And then they heard that there was going to be a restaurant there and of course it was offered to them because the people, the developers knew of his background as a chef I suppose or confectioner. And they said "Would you like to run the restaurant?" So they've taken on the restaurant. and they've never done anything like this before and they're now starting. They've just started and only about six months ago maybe.
Ö:
Do you know if this
is a friend of
A:
Yes, they are friends.
ö.
On you
how a person:A:
No.
O:
A:
No.
D:
I want to come back to...
Ö:
Yes I think we stop the band and we'll turn it over, yes?
The band is now turned over and please go on.
D;
Well I want to come back to the company. Or...as it was also called:
as we asked you about before. Did you ever hear about midst of the eighties?
in the
A:
No, definitely not. No, the first time I heard of weeks ago, three weeks ago.
was in the papers about tivo
D:
It's a fact though, as far as we understand, that
and started this company in the midst of the eighties and you haven't heard about it?
A.
No.
D:
And that they were involved in security questions.
A:
You mean as...?
D
Security analysis.
D:
Yes.
A
Aild they live in....they bought one of the cluster houses. And the development... It's still being developed: there's going to be a golf course and everything. And then they heard that there was going to be a restaurant there and of course it was offered to them because the people, the developers knew of his background as a chef I suppose or confectioner. And they said "Would you like to run the restaurant?" So they've taken on the restaurant. and they've never done anything like this before and they're now starting. They've just started and only about six months ago maybe.
Ö:
Do you know if this
is a friend of
A:
Yes, they are friends.
ö.
On you
how a person:A:
No.
O:
A:
No.
D:
I want to come back to...
Ö:
Yes I think we stop the band and we'll turn it over, yes?
The band is now turned over and please go on.
D;
Well I want to come back to the company. Or...as it was also called:
as we asked you about before. Did you ever hear about midst of the eighties?
in the
A:
No, definitely not. No, the first time I heard of weeks ago, three weeks ago.
was in the papers about tivo
D:
It's a fact though, as far as we understand, that
and started this company in the midst of the eighties and you haven't heard about it?
A.
No.
D:
And that they were involved in security questions.
country. I'm certain of thai. Well, I mean that's my assessment of that the Afrikane! people are like. I don't think they would ever do it. I really don't. Whether ownout there is a South African connection I don't know, I really don't know. That I don't know. I cioni... cali't see the reason for it though. I can't see the reason. I mean to say there's no reason for it. I mean we all know, we all know that Sweden was one of the countries that financed what was then, we were all told, was a terrorist organisation. The African National Congress was a terrorist organisation, they were banned in the country, they were banned here. And every time you read anything in the paper, it was "the terrorists had put a bomb here" or "the terrorists had put a bomb there", so everyone thought that they were terrorists. Now I don't think... The fact that Sweden gave money to them is not a reason to go and kill the prime minister. Britain gave money to theni. America gave money to them. Gemany gave money to them. A lot of countries yave money to them killing the prime minister is not going to make them not give money.
D
what do you...how
If I
suggest that|was ado you comment on that?
A:
Well, this is possible, that's all I can say.
D
Bu: you haven't heard of it?
A.
No.
D:
himself
Can you explain why one person has told us that if anyone except would know of the activities of
you would be the one.
Ö:
And
Or is it.
is your
Α:
yes. Well, they must...thcy can only say that, whoever it was. Because they know that I have been friendly with
and so I assume that certain contidences would have been exchanged, but no I didn't know anything about and
I can assure you knows far less than I know.
Ö:
The name
A
I know
Ö
You know him?
A A
Yes.
Ö:
Can you tell us about your friendship?
A:
It's not really a friendship with don't know him well. He was a
Always friendly tenns, on good terns, yes. I
when I
at
country. I'm certain of thai. Well, I mean that's my assessment of that the Afrikane! people are like. I don't think they would ever do it. I really don't. Whether ownout there is a South African connection I don't know, I really don't know. That I don't know. I cioni... cali't see the reason for it though. I can't see the reason. I mean to say there's no reason for it. I mean we all know, we all know that Sweden was one of the countries that financed what was then, we were all told, was a terrorist organisation. The African National Congress was a terrorist organisation, they were banned in the country, they were banned here. And every time you read anything in the paper, it was "the terrorists had put a bomb here" or "the terrorists had put a bomb there", so everyone thought that they were terrorists. Now I don't think... The fact that Sweden gave money to them is not a reason to go and kill the prime minister. Britain gave money to theni. America gave money to them. Gemany gave money to them. A lot of countries yave money to them killing the prime minister is not going to make them not give money.
D
what do you...how
If I
suggest that|was ado you comment on that?
A:
Well, this is possible, that's all I can say.
D
Bu: you haven't heard of it?
A.
No.
D:
himself
Can you explain why one person has told us that if anyone except would know of the activities of
you would be the one.
Ö:
And
Or is it.
is your
Α:
yes. Well, they must...thcy can only say that, whoever it was. Because they know that I have been friendly with
and so I assume that certain contidences would have been exchanged, but no I didn't know anything about and
I can assure you knows far less than I know.
Ö:
The name
A
I know
Ö
You know him?
A A
Yes.
Ö:
Can you tell us about your friendship?
A:
It's not really a friendship with don't know him well. He was a
first mei him. He subsequently joined the...le came up here I think le joined
hie came up here, he furthered his studies at
And he then leti He became very disillusioned with
He
He was concerned that the...I don't know how best to put this. He was concerned that .. He was not concerned, and I must make this a bit clear that he was not concerned and I was never concerned that tliere would be a black government in South Africa. That was never ever ..
concern of mine or of, I know that. What he was detinitely concerned about is that for want or a better way of expl... The only way I can explain i:: the weste:11 way of life would be maintained, law and order would be maintained. lliere would not be anarchy, there would not be inter-tribal tighting there would not be any of these things. that the country would remain governable in the iransition period and wierwards and tita!! it would continue to go ahead, whether it has a black, white, Inchalu. coloured, green. purple government made no difference. And he felt that given the history or the country. there was a very strong possibility, and I think the average South African will probably tell you that as well: hefore the elections there were tears in the country that there might be a very severe outbreak of violence. If not between black and white, black on black violence, which has always been a problem here and continues to be a problem. ile telt that there needed to be a strong moderate black opposition and so he saw that ...ll opening for himself witl|, and he (and he is now, or he was until recently - they have changed the system 1oW - but lie was atves. That's what I know about
1 know that he...
Sii
Ö:
Do you know if
and
know cach other?
A:
They probably do know each other. I don't know. I don't know for certain. 10. I would imagine... I don't know.
Maybe they know each other. It wouldı't surprise me if they know each other, but they've never said that they know cach other. I don't think I've ever seen them together. I would probably know that.
D:
There is one thing that puzzles me:A:
That shouldn't puzzle you...I know il person called
and
at the time thatleturned from ... his name also
as having been involved in some way with But he didn't...I don't think they
1 don't think they
I'm not sure whether... Certainly I know that was in Europe, and I think he was there for a couple of years and s was definitely here. When the story broke in the press c!iat
I'l! tell you how went (this is exactly how I met him)
I'm Sorry, I'm talking aloud now. I went to the
about reclaiming soil.it ivas a soil
And has a degree in
He is a...I suppose you could call him a. ife knows about
a. He was all the same Wiren his paper...his name
some time later, the people
first mei him. He subsequently joined the...le came up here I think le joined
hie came up here, he furthered his studies at
And he then leti He became very disillusioned with
He
He was concerned that the...I don't know how best to put this. He was concerned that .. He was not concerned, and I must make this a bit clear that he was not concerned and I was never concerned that tliere would be a black government in South Africa. That was never ever ..
concern of mine or of, I know that. What he was detinitely concerned about is that for want or a better way of expl... The only way I can explain i:: the weste:11 way of life would be maintained, law and order would be maintained. lliere would not be anarchy, there would not be inter-tribal tighting there would not be any of these things. that the country would remain governable in the iransition period and wierwards and tita!! it would continue to go ahead, whether it has a black, white, Inchalu. coloured, green. purple government made no difference. And he felt that given the history or the country. there was a very strong possibility, and I think the average South African will probably tell you that as well: hefore the elections there were tears in the country that there might be a very severe outbreak of violence. If not between black and white, black on black violence, which has always been a problem here and continues to be a problem. ile telt that there needed to be a strong moderate black opposition and so he saw that ...ll opening for himself witl|, and he (and he is now, or he was until recently - they have changed the system 1oW - but lie was atves. That's what I know about
1 know that he...
Sii
Ö:
Do you know if
and
know cach other?
A:
They probably do know each other. I don't know. I don't know for certain. 10. I would imagine... I don't know.
Maybe they know each other. It wouldı't surprise me if they know each other, but they've never said that they know cach other. I don't think I've ever seen them together. I would probably know that.
D:
There is one thing that puzzles me:A:
That shouldn't puzzle you...I know il person called
and
at the time thatleturned from ... his name also
as having been involved in some way with But he didn't...I don't think they
1 don't think they
I'm not sure whether... Certainly I know that was in Europe, and I think he was there for a couple of years and s was definitely here. When the story broke in the press c!iat
I'l! tell you how went (this is exactly how I met him)
I'm Sorry, I'm talking aloud now. I went to the
about reclaiming soil.it ivas a soil
And has a degree in
He is a...I suppose you could call him a. ife knows about
that had known him kepi him at a distance. They didn't like it. They shunned him. But ! knew...excuse me,
but not...! I'd just inet them. And I thought that actually it was
I thought it was quite good.
>
problem with it then.
And I liad no problem with that. I didn't have any had no high profile or anything like that. I'ır: not actually but
ivas very very low and certainly
That's the only way
Sure
2
I met
I don't actually think that
introduced me 10 I don't think he did. I think that
was...
and are frierds.
and
are friends. I'm a good friend of
It is possible, I would say it is probable that I met through or through . I can't really remember now. That's how I met them.
D:
Is there something else you could tell us that you think could be of interest to us in this connection?
A:
In connection with what? With
D
With the murder of Olof Palme. Or with the investigation liere in South Africa: people we should talk to.
A:
I don'i think so. I personally... ! must be honest with you. I do:i't...
D
We would appreciate that.
A:
No. 110, but I'm telling you now, I am being honest. I don't personally think, I don't think that had anything to do with it. I think. I personally think that's just a red herring. That's my personal feeling. That's my personal feeling. I mean I know. I don't know, I read in the paper that (said know's something about it all and was involved. I don't think he said he did it. Well, I thought to myself: "Well avbe is not on good terms with because he spent
und didn't. So maybe there was bitterness there. So maybe lie's trying to make trouble for
From what I know of I don't... I think he's incapable. Personally. Buil might be totally and utterly wrong. I don'...you know I miglu easily be uliong. Bui i don's think he's capable. I really don't think he's capable. I think that... You know, I don't know
that had known him kepi him at a distance. They didn't like it. They shunned him. But ! knew...excuse me,
but not...! I'd just inet them. And I thought that actually it was
I thought it was quite good.
>
problem with it then.
And I liad no problem with that. I didn't have any had no high profile or anything like that. I'ır: not actually but
ivas very very low and certainly
That's the only way
Sure
2
I met
I don't actually think that
introduced me 10 I don't think he did. I think that
was...
and are frierds.
and
are friends. I'm a good friend of
It is possible, I would say it is probable that I met through or through . I can't really remember now. That's how I met them.
D:
Is there something else you could tell us that you think could be of interest to us in this connection?
A:
In connection with what? With
D
With the murder of Olof Palme. Or with the investigation liere in South Africa: people we should talk to.
A:
I don'i think so. I personally... ! must be honest with you. I do:i't...
D
We would appreciate that.
A:
No. 110, but I'm telling you now, I am being honest. I don't personally think, I don't think that had anything to do with it. I think. I personally think that's just a red herring. That's my personal feeling. That's my personal feeling. I mean I know. I don't know, I read in the paper that (said know's something about it all and was involved. I don't think he said he did it. Well, I thought to myself: "Well avbe is not on good terms with because he spent
und didn't. So maybe there was bitterness there. So maybe lie's trying to make trouble for
From what I know of I don't... I think he's incapable. Personally. Buil might be totally and utterly wrong. I don'...you know I miglu easily be uliong. Bui i don's think he's capable. I really don't think he's capable. I think that... You know, I don't know
. Of course, you know there were...chere was national intelligence, not only the security police: national intelligence. That was a separate...which you'd know about much more than me, I mean I don't know. I just know...and I do know... I don't know, but I suspect that there was probably rivalry between national intelligence and the security branch. Maybe national intelligence, someone in national intelligence would be able to assist you.
D:
Okay, I didn't mean that you should speculate. What I asked you was rather: Do you know any specific person that we ought to talk to that we haven't mentioned?
A:
No I don't. I definitely don't.
You have no further knowledge of this matter?
No.
Ö:
Okay, then we will end this at ten minutes to twelve. Do you want this tape, to listen to it?
A:
No.
Ö:
You don't? Okay.
END OF INTERROGATION
. Of course, you know there were...chere was national intelligence, not only the security police: national intelligence. That was a separate...which you'd know about much more than me, I mean I don't know. I just know...and I do know... I don't know, but I suspect that there was probably rivalry between national intelligence and the security branch. Maybe national intelligence, someone in national intelligence would be able to assist you.
D:
Okay, I didn't mean that you should speculate. What I asked you was rather: Do you know any specific person that we ought to talk to that we haven't mentioned?
A:
No I don't. I definitely don't.
You have no further knowledge of this matter?
No.
Ö:
Okay, then we will end this at ten minutes to twelve. Do you want this tape, to listen to it?
Yes, we will ask you some questions. Have you...do you know anything about the conipany
or...?
A:
No. I know nothing about it.
Ö:
You don't know anything?
A:
No.
Ö:
Do you know...?
A:
I've heard the namein the papers. Is that what you're talking about?
0:
Yes. Well then, if you have any connection with
..?
A:
Not at all.
Ö:
Not at all?
A:
No.
Ö:
Do you know this personA:
Yes I do.
Ő:
Are you
faniliar with him?
A:
Yes, I'mn familiar with him. I think...
Ö:
Can you tell us about your contacts with him?
A:
as
>
ivas a
Well, I can tell you tliat...apart from the fact that everybody knows
He was given a lot of publicity after
I think. I have met I know
I attended the I know that he
he . I know that he
the in Sweden.
And eventually he came back irere, amid much publicity. Since then I've seen him from time to time. I'm on don't really know what he does. I don't hnow... You know lie lett...he left ...quiie a few years ago, quite a few years ago. He resigned fromrking with or working for a
I didn't know anything about the company. I didn't know anything about them, but I know that
As to what he's doing now I'm not quite sure. I mean I know, obviously I know that (, but I only
Ö:
Yes, we will ask you some questions. Have you...do you know anything about the conipany
or...?
A:
No. I know nothing about it.
Ö:
You don't know anything?
A:
No.
Ö:
Do you know...?
A:
I've heard the namein the papers. Is that what you're talking about?
0:
Yes. Well then, if you have any connection with
..?
A:
Not at all.
Ö:
Not at all?
A:
No.
Ö:
Do you know this personA:
Yes I do.
Ő:
Are you
faniliar with him?
A:
Yes, I'mn familiar with him. I think...
Ö:
Can you tell us about your contacts with him?
A:
as
>
ivas a
Well, I can tell you tliat...apart from the fact that everybody knows
He was given a lot of publicity after
I think. I have met I know
I attended the I know that he
he . I know that he
the in Sweden.
And eventually he came back irere, amid much publicity. Since then I've seen him from time to time. I'm on don't really know what he does. I don't hnow... You know lie lett...he left ...quiie a few years ago, quite a few years ago. He resigned fromrking with or working for a
I didn't know anything about the company. I didn't know anything about them, but I know that
As to what he's doing now I'm not quite sure. I mean I know, obviously I know that (, but I only
know that because I have read it in the newspapers. I mean ! haven't spoken to anybody who's said to me
or anything. I've read that in the papers. And I'm... To the best of my knowledge he was working for a company...the name will come back to me. Do you know any names of companies? Can you prompt me here? Can you help me?
D:
Beyond the company, do you have any connection with
and this
A:
No. There's another company that he is working for now. I have an idea that it is a
....and he is helping them. I think he's I'm not sure in what way. As aI'm talking about. As a And it is definitely a
), but I cannot remember the name now. I know the namc. If you tell me the name I'll know it, but I can't remember it offhand. But it is aand he isthem.
D:
In which capacity?
A:
I think he's a business...he's a
but I'm not... When you say "In which capacity?", it's hard for me to say. I think they do
and I know tha: he travels. I don't know how much he travels. I know that he travels to know he travels to I think he travels to other parts of : perhaps to to the northern...some of the north, central I don't know how much lie travels, but I know that he does...or I say he does, he was...acting in a capacity as an advisor. Basically to help with protocol and that sort of thing you know: to show them how to go abou things, liow to...if they wanted to do a business deal he would help them to go about it in the correct way, so that if, for example...I mean I'm just using a hypothetical example because I'm ignorant, but if, for example, they wanted to sell...I don't know, maizc, say, to
and they wouldn't quite know how to go about it, he would advise them. He would help them to import maize from businessmen in
say, he would help them.
say to the
C
Can you describe your relationship to We're not interested in today, of course.
in the middle of the eighties?
A:
You know, I've always had a friendly relationship with
I've always...
Ö:
Any kind of business relationship?
A:
No. You say "Any kind of business relationship?" I mean. very small. but not really business. 110. He's bought plants from me, that kind of thing, but 110. not business, not really. When you mean business. you mean proper business.
Ö:
Yes.
A:
No.
know that because I have read it in the newspapers. I mean ! haven't spoken to anybody who's said to me
or anything. I've read that in the papers. And I'm... To the best of my knowledge he was working for a company...the name will come back to me. Do you know any names of companies? Can you prompt me here? Can you help me?
D:
Beyond the company, do you have any connection with
and this
A:
No. There's another company that he is working for now. I have an idea that it is a
....and he is helping them. I think he's I'm not sure in what way. As aI'm talking about. As a And it is definitely a
), but I cannot remember the name now. I know the namc. If you tell me the name I'll know it, but I can't remember it offhand. But it is aand he isthem.
D:
In which capacity?
A:
I think he's a business...he's a
but I'm not... When you say "In which capacity?", it's hard for me to say. I think they do
and I know tha: he travels. I don't know how much he travels. I know that he travels to know he travels to I think he travels to other parts of : perhaps to to the northern...some of the north, central I don't know how much lie travels, but I know that he does...or I say he does, he was...acting in a capacity as an advisor. Basically to help with protocol and that sort of thing you know: to show them how to go abou things, liow to...if they wanted to do a business deal he would help them to go about it in the correct way, so that if, for example...I mean I'm just using a hypothetical example because I'm ignorant, but if, for example, they wanted to sell...I don't know, maizc, say, to
and they wouldn't quite know how to go about it, he would advise them. He would help them to import maize from businessmen in
say, he would help them.
say to the
C
Can you describe your relationship to We're not interested in today, of course.
in the middle of the eighties?
A:
You know, I've always had a friendly relationship with
I've always...
Ö:
Any kind of business relationship?
A:
No. You say "Any kind of business relationship?" I mean. very small. but not really business. 110. He's bought plants from me, that kind of thing, but 110. not business, not really. When you mean business. you mean proper business.
Yes: i mean he's told you to do some things in the
A:
No, I've never been involved in awith|
Ö:
Never?
A:
No, never.
Ö:
We liave a person
who says
that you are aware of the murder of Mr Palnie.
A:
You know, before I came here, I knew that it was likely you would ask me certain questions, and I thought to myself: "They probably have inore information than they will allow me to realise. So if you know something, don't lie, just tell them."
So you do know?
A:
Yes. Now I'm telling you that i know nothing aboui the murder of Olof Palme. Nothing. I remember at the time I read - and I'm not sure where I read it - but there was a scandal in Sweden about Bofors guns that were sold to India. And it surrounded Olof Palme. it seemed trom... Look, this is how long ago? Ten or twelve years ago?
Ten years.
A:
And I remember thinking, and this was never told to me, but I might have... I definitely read something about Bofors guns being sold. I don't even know if they're made in Sweden. I don't know where they're made. But I knew that there would be people who wouldn't be happy if these guns were sold to India, and it wouldn't surprise me if the, for example, sent a team to kill Olof Palme. But I mean that was just a thouglu. I never read anything about that. I just thought to myself: "You know. the
aud don't like each other, the
D:
Well, as you told you before the interrogation started, there have been many theories about the murder, and the selling of Bofors guns is one of them, but we have come here 10 investigate the South African link. If we...if I may put some more questions...
A:
Please. Go ahead. Go ahead.
D:
...concerning
When did you first meet with bim? Which ear?
Ö:
Some kind of operator for
A:
Some kind of operator?
Ö:
Yes: i mean he's told you to do some things in the
A:
No, I've never been involved in awith|
Ö:
Never?
A:
No, never.
Ö:
We liave a person
who says
that you are aware of the murder of Mr Palnie.
A:
You know, before I came here, I knew that it was likely you would ask me certain questions, and I thought to myself: "They probably have inore information than they will allow me to realise. So if you know something, don't lie, just tell them."
So you do know?
A:
Yes. Now I'm telling you that i know nothing aboui the murder of Olof Palme. Nothing. I remember at the time I read - and I'm not sure where I read it - but there was a scandal in Sweden about Bofors guns that were sold to India. And it surrounded Olof Palme. it seemed trom... Look, this is how long ago? Ten or twelve years ago?
Ten years.
A:
And I remember thinking, and this was never told to me, but I might have... I definitely read something about Bofors guns being sold. I don't even know if they're made in Sweden. I don't know where they're made. But I knew that there would be people who wouldn't be happy if these guns were sold to India, and it wouldn't surprise me if the, for example, sent a team to kill Olof Palme. But I mean that was just a thouglu. I never read anything about that. I just thought to myself: "You know. the
aud don't like each other, the
D:
Well, as you told you before the interrogation started, there have been many theories about the murder, and the selling of Bofors guns is one of them, but we have come here 10 investigate the South African link. If we...if I may put some more questions...
It's a really hard question that... I would say... When did I first meet with him? When did le come back from
D:
1980.
A
Then I met him in 1980. Approximately.
D:
But you said before that you went to
together.
A:I was at the same Twith him. I didn't know him alYou know, if you're at and you're see the boys beneath you.
you clon!
D:
All right.A:
Yes.
D:
And you have been that ever since?
A:
Yes, I have been. But when I sayI don't see a lot of him. I don't see a lot of I don't see
I see him maybe once every six months. I might... Just occasionally you know I might see him.
ID:
Has he ever told you about his
A:
No.
D:
mean, it would have been normal that you had asked him questions or he would have boasted about it or something like that.
A:
always thought that
did speak too much about
That was my opinion. The reason I thought that was not because he boasted He didn't really... Yerli know, our relationship was never one... Well, si:nply he didn't boast to me about what lie did. He didn't and I didn't really ask him. I mean, occasionally you know lie would say. well... He really told me very very little. Very very little. What he spoke about was actually what was revealed in the papers and then he would maybe boast about what was in the papers. But apart from that, no. He didn't tell me about any work that he was involved with. I have no information, and I didn't ask about any work that he was involved with at the time, in
or anything like that. Nothing like that. I didn't ask him and it was never told to me. I thought that he talked too much. My reason for saying that is that i thought that he's got a high profile and it wasn't good to have such a high profile in my opinion. It could be dangerous. Not dangerous from the point of...because someone... If there was a change of government, the authorities would prosecute him or grab him. No, I didn't think that at all. That never crossed... I didn't
A:
It's a really hard question that... I would say... When did I first meet with him? When did le come back from
D:
1980.
A
Then I met him in 1980. Approximately.
D:
But you said before that you went to
together.
A:I was at the same Twith him. I didn't know him alYou know, if you're at and you're see the boys beneath you.
you clon!
D:
All right.A:
Yes.
D:
And you have been that ever since?
A:
Yes, I have been. But when I sayI don't see a lot of him. I don't see a lot of I don't see
I see him maybe once every six months. I might... Just occasionally you know I might see him.
ID:
Has he ever told you about his
A:
No.
D:
mean, it would have been normal that you had asked him questions or he would have boasted about it or something like that.
A:
always thought that
did speak too much about
That was my opinion. The reason I thought that was not because he boasted He didn't really... Yerli know, our relationship was never one... Well, si:nply he didn't boast to me about what lie did. He didn't and I didn't really ask him. I mean, occasionally you know lie would say. well... He really told me very very little. Very very little. What he spoke about was actually what was revealed in the papers and then he would maybe boast about what was in the papers. But apart from that, no. He didn't tell me about any work that he was involved with. I have no information, and I didn't ask about any work that he was involved with at the time, in
or anything like that. Nothing like that. I didn't ask him and it was never told to me. I thought that he talked too much. My reason for saying that is that i thought that he's got a high profile and it wasn't good to have such a high profile in my opinion. It could be dangerous. Not dangerous from the point of...because someone... If there was a change of government, the authorities would prosecute him or grab him. No, I didn't think that at all. That never crossed... I didn't
And they were fighting a . And I thought: maybe some young guy who wants to make a name for himself will take a shot at
And then he'll be a big hero for having killed the
And I felt that was silly to talk and to maintain a high profile, because lie made himself a potential target, not by the by some unknown person who just wanted to make a name for himseil Tholl was inis opinion.
JUL
D:
Has |Olof Palme?
ever, in your presence, made any comment upon the murder of
A:
Never. Not oncc.
Ö:
Do you know any Swede?
A:
Any Swede?
Ö:
Yes.
A:
Yes, I do
The one is no longer alive and the other one is a man called
who is a friend of mine. Having said that...d say he is a friend of mine, but I haven't seen him for maybe eight years. ¡Pre was aand his name wa
Is that a
M.FL
Ö:
Yes.
A:
It was
ог
or something like that and he lised to write newsletters. And I used to occasionally get these newsletters and I went to
and when I was in Il met(1 subsequently (with him. And once... When I say "friendly". I spent a weekend with him. And about possibly two years later I went on holiday to and i spent four or five days with
D:
When?
A.
Before Olof Palme was murdered. You say "when?" Maybe two years before. You know I'd have to go and look at my passport to see when my passport was stamped. I can't really remember.
Ö:
That was the beginning of the eighties...
A:
When was Olof Palme murdered?
O:
'86.
at that time, was a
And they were fighting a . And I thought: maybe some young guy who wants to make a name for himself will take a shot at
And then he'll be a big hero for having killed the
And I felt that was silly to talk and to maintain a high profile, because lie made himself a potential target, not by the by some unknown person who just wanted to make a name for himseil Tholl was inis opinion.
JUL
D:
Has |Olof Palme?
ever, in your presence, made any comment upon the murder of
A:
Never. Not oncc.
Ö:
Do you know any Swede?
A:
Any Swede?
Ö:
Yes.
A:
Yes, I do
The one is no longer alive and the other one is a man called
who is a friend of mine. Having said that...d say he is a friend of mine, but I haven't seen him for maybe eight years. ¡Pre was aand his name wa
Is that a
M.FL
Ö:
Yes.
A:
It was
ог
or something like that and he lised to write newsletters. And I used to occasionally get these newsletters and I went to
and when I was in Il met(1 subsequently (with him. And once... When I say "friendly". I spent a weekend with him. And about possibly two years later I went on holiday to and i spent four or five days with
D:
When?
A.
Before Olof Palme was murdered. You say "when?" Maybe two years before. You know I'd have to go and look at my passport to see when my passport was stamped. I can't really remember.
I would say it was the beginning of the eighties. At the beginning of the eighties. Beforc 'S6, yes definitely. But I don't think
had anything to do with it. He's not the type of person in my opinion. He's a
I don't think he's...
Ö:
This other Swede you mentioned, this
Was he aA:
You know, I didn't really know him well. I kind of knew him through liis newsletters. I don't... He might have been a correspondent. He might have been a correspondent at some stage. And then I think he retired and lived in
and he isod 10 send out newsletters around the world. I think that's how he more or less made a living you know ! think he sold his newsletters. People subscribed to them and...
Ö:
Is he still in?
A:
No, he died about... I think he died about two years ago I think. Roughly two years ago.
Ö:
And this|, was he a friend of
A:
I think they knew... Yes. I don't know how friendly. When you say "Was he a friend?" | don': know how friendly, but yes I think they were acquainted.
D:
Wien you met with? Have you
A:
Yes. I've seen him in (. He came here on holiday. He came here on holiday. He stayed...he went d
to the coast and he stayed there. He had a holiday there for aboUL... I don't know how long. A week, 1110 weeks. I think nol even. no: about a week, I think it was a week. I think he was in the country for about two weeks.
D:
When would that have been?
A:
When would that have been...? You know, it's very hard for me to remember what I'm trying to say is: Was it before or after Olof Palme's death? I dronestly can't remember What I'm trying to think now to myself is: did I see him for the last time here. or did I see him for the last time in England? Did I... Did he come here for a holiday and then did I go there? No, but he came here for a holiday. No, it was... The last time I saw him. le came here. The last time I saw hiin he came here.
Ö:
Do you know where he lived when he came down here?
A
Yes, he stayed in a:1 hotel in
Ö:
No, I don't mean... I mean where he has his residence. Where ic was living. Was he still in
A:
I would say it was the beginning of the eighties. At the beginning of the eighties. Beforc 'S6, yes definitely. But I don't think
had anything to do with it. He's not the type of person in my opinion. He's a
I don't think he's...
Ö:
This other Swede you mentioned, this
Was he aA:
You know, I didn't really know him well. I kind of knew him through liis newsletters. I don't... He might have been a correspondent. He might have been a correspondent at some stage. And then I think he retired and lived in
and he isod 10 send out newsletters around the world. I think that's how he more or less made a living you know ! think he sold his newsletters. People subscribed to them and...
Ö:
Is he still in?
A:
No, he died about... I think he died about two years ago I think. Roughly two years ago.
Ö:
And this|, was he a friend of
A:
I think they knew... Yes. I don't know how friendly. When you say "Was he a friend?" | don': know how friendly, but yes I think they were acquainted.
D:
Wien you met with? Have you
A:
Yes. I've seen him in (. He came here on holiday. He came here on holiday. He stayed...he went d
to the coast and he stayed there. He had a holiday there for aboUL... I don't know how long. A week, 1110 weeks. I think nol even. no: about a week, I think it was a week. I think he was in the country for about two weeks.
D:
When would that have been?
A:
When would that have been...? You know, it's very hard for me to remember what I'm trying to say is: Was it before or after Olof Palme's death? I dronestly can't remember What I'm trying to think now to myself is: did I see him for the last time here. or did I see him for the last time in England? Did I... Did he come here for a holiday and then did I go there? No, but he came here for a holiday. No, it was... The last time I saw him. le came here. The last time I saw hiin he came here.
Ö:
Do you know where he lived when he came down here?
A
Yes, he stayed in a:1 hotel in
Ö:
No, I don't mean... I mean where he has his residence. Where ic was living. Was he still in
You haven't had... You haven't been in touch with him since he moved io
A:
No, I haven't. I haven't. I received...I think I received a Christmas card from him. Thili's all.
D:
Has
or any other person ever hinted to you that he was involved in
A:
No.
D:
That he was working as an agent for somebody?
A:
Has
or any other person hinted that
worked as
No.
Have you heard before that
might have been a
A:
No, I haven't heard it.
D:
Is this the first time you hear that?
A:
You know, you hear...what I've read in the newspaper. I've never been...I've never been ever told...anything about about
working for the
I've never been told that, no. I believed, and I still believe it, that was an independent person himself, that he was an
if you like: don't believe that he worked... From what I know of hin: he never ever hinted to me thatHe didn't ever hint that to nie.
D:
Do you know it
ever met with
A:
I don't think he did. If he did, he never said anything to ine.
D:
And nor did
A:
I don't think so. I don't think so. Not from what I can remember. I don't think so. You know, it's liard for me to remember particular conversations. I don't really... I don't really think so. no. I don't personally think that worked for
migh; he WTO
D:
As you may know, some people have been pointed out as the murderer of Olof Palme. And
is one of them.
A:
Yes, he lived in
yes. He lived in
D:
You haven't had... You haven't been in touch with him since he moved io
A:
No, I haven't. I haven't. I received...I think I received a Christmas card from him. Thili's all.
D:
Has
or any other person ever hinted to you that he was involved in
A:
No.
D:
That he was working as an agent for somebody?
A:
Has
or any other person hinted that
worked as
No.
Have you heard before that
might have been a
A:
No, I haven't heard it.
D:
Is this the first time you hear that?
A:
You know, you hear...what I've read in the newspaper. I've never been...I've never been ever told...anything about about
working for the
I've never been told that, no. I believed, and I still believe it, that was an independent person himself, that he was an
if you like: don't believe that he worked... From what I know of hin: he never ever hinted to me thatHe didn't ever hint that to nie.
D:
Do you know it
ever met with
A:
I don't think he did. If he did, he never said anything to ine.
D:
And nor did
A:
I don't think so. I don't think so. Not from what I can remember. I don't think so. You know, it's liard for me to remember particular conversations. I don't really... I don't really think so. no. I don't personally think that worked for
migh; he WTO
D:
As you may know, some people have been pointed out as the murderer of Olof Palme. And
I know it. I know. It's a joke. I think...I really do. I think that
incapable.
D:
In what respect?
A:assessment ofI really don't think
I promise you I don't think so.
D:
What makes you say so?
just from You know, he's married to :IN
2!!! he has... I think he has now
I don't know how much you know about but I think he has now yot
I know he hadquite late in life. And I s7w the way he... was the one who kind of ran that family. Do you know what I mean? was the one who was responsible and so on. He...he...That was my inpression of him. I thouglit was quite disordered. kind of a disorganized sort of person who was a bit lazy as well. In fact, very luzy. Ti:at was my impression of
Ö:
What did he talk about when he talked about Sweden, for instance?
A.
When he talked about Sweden? I always told him that I wanted to go to Siveden because i thought it was a lovely country. I'd heard... I've never been to Sweden and I ve heard that it's a very nice country. And I did actually... There was another acquaintance of mine whose
He only sold me a chainsaw. He lived here for a few years and used to tell me a lot about it. So I've always wanted to go there. But
He didn't really say much about Sweden, you know, when I think about it. Hc didu't really say much about Sweden. He just seemed to think that it wasn't it country to live 110t the country to live in.
Ö:
Why?
He didn't give real proper reasons. He just scened to... I think what thc real reason was... Well, I say "the real reason". I think he had a lot of reasons. He didu't like
either. He met as far as I remember, in because lie was attached to
at some stage. But now... This might not be true bus this is from what I remember him selling me. And he never discussed how, but I understand that he met his
And it was very nice andthere as a or something. Anyway, they eventually gor
in a nice house in a nice part of the country, but te
like it. He didn't like the people. I suppose...le didn't moan about the weather, but maybe the weather's similar in Sweden, I don't know Bill the weather wasn't very pleasant usually: He didn't like the people. He didn't like the way things were
A:
I know it. I know. It's a joke. I think...I really do. I think that
incapable.
D:
In what respect?
A:assessment ofI really don't think
I promise you I don't think so.
D:
What makes you say so?
just from You know, he's married to :IN
2!!! he has... I think he has now
I don't know how much you know about but I think he has now yot
I know he hadquite late in life. And I s7w the way he... was the one who kind of ran that family. Do you know what I mean? was the one who was responsible and so on. He...he...That was my inpression of him. I thouglit was quite disordered. kind of a disorganized sort of person who was a bit lazy as well. In fact, very luzy. Ti:at was my impression of
Ö:
What did he talk about when he talked about Sweden, for instance?
A.
When he talked about Sweden? I always told him that I wanted to go to Siveden because i thought it was a lovely country. I'd heard... I've never been to Sweden and I ve heard that it's a very nice country. And I did actually... There was another acquaintance of mine whose
He only sold me a chainsaw. He lived here for a few years and used to tell me a lot about it. So I've always wanted to go there. But
He didn't really say much about Sweden, you know, when I think about it. Hc didu't really say much about Sweden. He just seemed to think that it wasn't it country to live 110t the country to live in.
Ö:
Why?
He didn't give real proper reasons. He just scened to... I think what thc real reason was... Well, I say "the real reason". I think he had a lot of reasons. He didu't like
either. He met as far as I remember, in because lie was attached to
at some stage. But now... This might not be true bus this is from what I remember him selling me. And he never discussed how, but I understand that he met his
And it was very nice andthere as a or something. Anyway, they eventually gor
in a nice house in a nice part of the country, but te
like it. He didn't like the people. I suppose...le didn't moan about the weather, but maybe the weather's similar in Sweden, I don't know Bill the weather wasn't very pleasant usually: He didn't like the people. He didn't like the way things were
Förhör
Kort sammanfattning
Precio This is the record of the interrogation of J tsinis; .
This is the record of the interrogation ofJtsinis;H617676 H8717837 HBE 17832
The interrogation is being conducted at the Swedish Embassy in Pretoria on Wednesday 16 October 1996, beginning at 10.45. Leading the interrogation is Detective Superintendent Hans Ölvebro. Also present is Cheil Prosecutor Jan Danielsson.
The interrogation is being recorded on tape.
Leontsinis is being interrogated in connection with the so-called " South African lead". His name came up as a result of inter tions of other people.
Ö= Ölvebro D=Danielsson A = Leontsinis
Ö:
Yes, Mr Leontsinis, I would like to ask you to give us a brief information about yourself.
A:Ö:
Well, we are most interested in the middle of the eighties: I mean the murder of Mr Palme was in 1986 in February, so if you can tell us where you were at that time.
I was in South Africa at the time. I believe I was in South Alrica at the time of Olot Palme's death. I...yes I'm almost certain of that. It's almost certain. I can't say I'm one hundred per cent certain, but I'm pretty certain: 1 was in South Africa at that time. What else do you...will you ask me some questions nou?
H8717863 HAN
1
Precio
This is the record of the interrogation ofJtsinis;H617676 H8717837 HBE 17832
The interrogation is being conducted at the Swedish Embassy in Pretoria on Wednesday 16 October 1996, beginning at 10.45. Leading the interrogation is Detective Superintendent Hans Ölvebro. Also present is Cheil Prosecutor Jan Danielsson.
The interrogation is being recorded on tape.
Leontsinis is being interrogated in connection with the so-called " South African lead". His name came up as a result of inter tions of other people.
Ö= Ölvebro D=Danielsson A = Leontsinis
Ö:
Yes, Mr Leontsinis, I would like to ask you to give us a brief information about yourself.
A:Ö:
Well, we are most interested in the middle of the eighties: I mean the murder of Mr Palme was in 1986 in February, so if you can tell us where you were at that time.
I was in South Africa at the time. I believe I was in South Alrica at the time of Olot Palme's death. I...yes I'm almost certain of that. It's almost certain. I can't say I'm one hundred per cent certain, but I'm pretty certain: 1 was in South Africa at that time. What else do you...will you ask me some questions nou?
And if I ask you to tell us about his opinion about Sweden. It's similar to UK or...?
A:
Ö:
Did he ever say that he had a Swedish policeman as his friend?
A:
No. Not that I remember, no.
Ö:
Do you know any Swedish policemen?
A:
No.
Ö:
The last time in Sweden there have been a lot of articles about the South African link. That's why this is being done down here: people have stepped forward and said something - that they have information about the murder. Those people who have been in the media: in some way, do you know any one of those people?
A:
Who have been in the media where?
D:
And that was the last you heard of him?
A:
Yes.
Ö:
And if I ask you to tell us about his opinion about Sweden. It's similar to UK or...?
A:
Ö:
Did he ever say that he had a Swedish policeman as his friend?
A:
No. Not that I remember, no.
Ö:
Do you know any Swedish policemen?
A:
No.
Ö:
The last time in Sweden there have been a lot of articles about the South African link. That's why this is being done down here: people have stepped forward and said something - that they have information about the murder. Those people who have been in the media: in some way, do you know any one of those people?
I think it was at a restaurant. I mean it wasn't in... It was at a restaurant. I think it was a restaurant in Juliannesburg, but I don't kuuw. I've met him.
D:
Is that the only time you have met him?
A:
Yes.
D:
Were other people present too?
A:
There were people in the restaurant, yes.
D:
Yes, but in your company?
A:
Oh yes, there were... I think, yes, we were a group of people as far as I remember.
D:
Do you remember the other persons?
A:him if I saw him now. I've seen pictures of him in the newspaper, so I would recognize him from that, if he looked the same, if he wore glasses, like he seems to wear heavy glasses. Yes, I would recognize him if he wore those glasses, but I don't think I would recognize him if I saw him.
D:.
Do you remember what you talked about?
A:
No. I didn't talk to him.
Ö:A:
I know of him.
Ö:
Here in South Africa.
A:
No. No, I don't.
Ö:A:Have you ever met him?
A:Ö:
Where?
A:
I think it was at a restaurant. I mean it wasn't in... It was at a restaurant. I think it was a restaurant in Juliannesburg, but I don't kuuw. I've met him.
D:
Is that the only time you have met him?
A:
Yes.
D:
Were other people present too?
A:
There were people in the restaurant, yes.
D:
Yes, but in your company?
A:
Oh yes, there were... I think, yes, we were a group of people as far as I remember.
D:
Do you remember the other persons?
A:him if I saw him now. I've seen pictures of him in the newspaper, so I would recognize him from that, if he looked the same, if he wore glasses, like he seems to wear heavy glasses. Yes, I would recognize him if he wore those glasses, but I don't think I would recognize him if I saw him.
Do you know if this(is a friend of Craig Williamson?
A:
Yes, they are friends.
Do you know a person:?
+
A:
No.
Ö:
|?
A:
No.
I want to come back to...
Ö:
Yes I think we stop the band and we'll turn it over, yes?
The band is now turned over and please go on.
D:
Well I want to come back to the company. Or...as it was also called: Operation Longreach, as we asked you about before. Did you ever hear about Longreach in the midst of the eighties?
A:
No, definitely not. No, the first time I heard of Longreach was in the papers about two weeks ago. three weeks ago.
D:A.
No.
D:A:
You mean as...?
D:
D:
Yes.
A:Ö:
Do you know if this(is a friend of Craig Williamson?
A:
Yes, they are friends.
Do you know a person:?
+
A:
No.
Ö:
|?
A:
No.
I want to come back to...
Ö:
Yes I think we stop the band and we'll turn it over, yes?
The band is now turned over and please go on.
D:
Well I want to come back to the company. Or...as it was also called: Operation Longreach, as we asked you about before. Did you ever hear about Longreach in the midst of the eighties?
A:
No, definitely not. No, the first time I heard of Longreach was in the papers about two weeks ago. three weeks ago.
It's quite possible. It's quite possible. I don't know anything about that. I personally... ! read in the papers about...I don't know, a short while ago, ten days ago. maybe last week. that the previous government under P. W. Botha, sanctioned the assassination of Olof Palme. In my opinion that is a pack of lies. That's an absolute pack of lies. Because the one thing about the Afrikaners, I'm not Afrikaans myself, but the Afrikaner psyche, the Afrikaner mentality wouldn't allow them to do it. It would be too much against the grain. They are God-fearing people and there are certain things...there may be a lot of things that I would never dream of doing, but there are certain things that they would never do: they would never ever sanction the assassination of a foreign head of state, never. Not the government, not P. W. Botha, never. I say that absolutely adamantly. Absolutely adamantly. If...if it was a South African connection that was responsible for Olof Palme's death, then it was definitely without the knowledge, certainly of the president of the
A:D:
Have you heard of a person called (A:
No.
D:A:
I don't think so.
D:
A very wealthy person.
A:D:
Yes.
A:
D:A:
It's quite possible. It's quite possible. I don't know anything about that. I personally... ! read in the papers about...I don't know, a short while ago, ten days ago. maybe last week. that the previous government under P. W. Botha, sanctioned the assassination of Olof Palme. In my opinion that is a pack of lies. That's an absolute pack of lies. Because the one thing about the Afrikaners, I'm not Afrikaans myself, but the Afrikaner psyche, the Afrikaner mentality wouldn't allow them to do it. It would be too much against the grain. They are God-fearing people and there are certain things...there may be a lot of things that I would never dream of doing, but there are certain things that they would never do: they would never ever sanction the assassination of a foreign head of state, never. Not the government, not P. W. Botha, never. I say that absolutely adamantly. Absolutely adamantly. If...if it was a South African connection that was responsible for Olof Palme's death, then it was definitely without the knowledge, certainly of the president of the
country. I'm certain of that. Well, I mean that's my assessment of what the Afrikaner people are like. I don't think they would ever do it. I really don't. Whether or not there was a South African connection I don't know, I really don't know. That I don't know. I don't... can't see the reason for it though. I can't see the reason. I mean to say there's no reason for it. I mean we all know, we all know that Sweden was one of the countries that financed what was then, we were all told, was a terrorist organisation. The African National Congress was a terrorist organisation, they were banned in the country, they were banned here. And every time you read anything in the paper, it was "the terrorists had put a bomb here" or "the terrorists had put a bomb there", so everyone thought that they were terrorists. Now I don't think... The fact that Sweden gave money to them is not a reason to go and kill the prime minister. Britain gave money to them. America gave money to them. Germany gave money to them. A lot of countries gave money to them. Killing the prime minister is not going to make them not give money.
D:
If I suggest that Longreach was a cover-up for anti-terrorist operations. what do you...how do you comment on that?
A:
Well, this is possible, that's all I can say.
D:
But you haven't heard of it?
A:
No.
D:Ö:
(A:
(Well, they must...they can only say that, whoever it was. Because they know that I have been friendly with Craig Williamson and so I assume that certain confidences would have been exchanged, but no I didn't know anything about Longreach and my wife I can assure you knows far less than I know.
Ö:
A:Ö:
You know him?
A:
Yes.
Can you tell us about your friendship?
A
country. I'm certain of that. Well, I mean that's my assessment of what the Afrikaner people are like. I don't think they would ever do it. I really don't. Whether or not there was a South African connection I don't know, I really don't know. That I don't know. I don't... can't see the reason for it though. I can't see the reason. I mean to say there's no reason for it. I mean we all know, we all know that Sweden was one of the countries that financed what was then, we were all told, was a terrorist organisation. The African National Congress was a terrorist organisation, they were banned in the country, they were banned here. And every time you read anything in the paper, it was "the terrorists had put a bomb here" or "the terrorists had put a bomb there", so everyone thought that they were terrorists. Now I don't think... The fact that Sweden gave money to them is not a reason to go and kill the prime minister. Britain gave money to them. America gave money to them. Germany gave money to them. A lot of countries gave money to them. Killing the prime minister is not going to make them not give money.
D:
If I suggest that Longreach was a cover-up for anti-terrorist operations. what do you...how do you comment on that?
A:
Well, this is possible, that's all I can say.
D:
But you haven't heard of it?
A:
No.
D:Ö:
(A:
(Well, they must...they can only say that, whoever it was. Because they know that I have been friendly with Craig Williamson and so I assume that certain confidences would have been exchanged, but no I didn't know anything about Longreach and my wife I can assure you knows far less than I know.
Okay, I didn't mean that you should speculate. What I asked you was rather: Do you know any specific person that we ought to talk to that we haven't mentioned?
A:
No I don't. I definitely don't.
Q:
You have no further knowledge of this matter?
A:
No.
Ö:
Okay, then we will end this at ten minutes to twelve. Do you want this tape, to listen to it?
A:
No.
Ö:
You don't? Okay.
END OF INTERROGATION
Hamed the
D:
Okay, I didn't mean that you should speculate. What I asked you was rather: Do you know any specific person that we ought to talk to that we haven't mentioned?
A:
No I don't. I definitely don't.
Q:
You have no further knowledge of this matter?
A:
No.
Ö:
Okay, then we will end this at ten minutes to twelve. Do you want this tape, to listen to it?
Beyond the company, do you have any connection with Mr Williamson and this Longreach?
A:D:
JA:
Ö:
Can you describe your relationship to Craig Williamson in the middle of the eighties? We're not interested in today, of course.
A:
You know, I've always had a friendly relationship with Craig Williamson. I've always...
Ö:
Any kind of business relationship?
A:
No. You say "Any kind of business relationship?" I mean, very small, but not really business, no. He's bought plants from me, that kind of thing, but no, not business, nor really. When you mean business, you mean proper business.
Ö:
Yes.
A:
No.
D:
Beyond the company, do you have any connection with Mr Williamson and this Longreach?
A:D:
JA:
Ö:
Can you describe your relationship to Craig Williamson in the middle of the eighties? We're not interested in today, of course.
A:
You know, I've always had a friendly relationship with Craig Williamson. I've always...
Ö:
Any kind of business relationship?
A:
No. You say "Any kind of business relationship?" I mean, very small, but not really business, no. He's bought plants from me, that kind of thing, but no, not business, nor really. When you mean business, you mean proper business.
Yes: I mean he's told you to do some things in the security business.
A:
No, I've never been involved in a security operation with Craig Williamson.
Ö:
Never?
A:
No, never.
Ö:
We have a person who says that you are aware of the murder of Mr Palme.
A:
You know, before I came here, I knew that it was likely you would ask me certain questions, and I thought to myself: "They probably have more information than they will allow me to realise. So if you know something, don't lie, just tell them."
So you do know?
A:
Yes. Now I'm telling you that I know nothing about the murder of Olof Palme. Nothing. I remember at the time I read - and I'm not sure where I read it - but there was a scandal in Sweden about Bofors guns that were sold to India. And it surrounded Olof Palme. It seemed from... Look, this is how long ago? Ten or twelve years ago?
Ö:
Ten years.
A:
And I remember thinking, and this was never told to me, but I might have... I definitely read something about Bofors guns being sold. I don't even know if they're made in Sweden. I don't know where they're made. But I knew that there would be people who wouldn't be happy if these guns were sold to India, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Pakistanis, for example, sent a team to kill Olof Palme. But I mean that was just a thought. I never read anything about that. I just thought to myself: "You know, the Pakistanis and Indians don't like each other, the Hindus and the Moslems..."
D:
Well, as you told you before the interrogation started, there have been many theories about the murder, and the selling of Bofors guns is one of them, but we have come here to investigate the South African link. If we...if I may put some more questions...
A:
Please. Go ahead. Go ahead.
D:
...concerning Craig Williamson. When did you first meet with him? Which year?
Ö:
Some kind of operator for Mr Williamson?.
A:
Some kind of operator?
Ö:
Yes: I mean he's told you to do some things in the security business.
A:
No, I've never been involved in a security operation with Craig Williamson.
Ö:
Never?
A:
No, never.
Ö:
We have a person who says that you are aware of the murder of Mr Palme.
A:
You know, before I came here, I knew that it was likely you would ask me certain questions, and I thought to myself: "They probably have more information than they will allow me to realise. So if you know something, don't lie, just tell them."
So you do know?
A:
Yes. Now I'm telling you that I know nothing about the murder of Olof Palme. Nothing. I remember at the time I read - and I'm not sure where I read it - but there was a scandal in Sweden about Bofors guns that were sold to India. And it surrounded Olof Palme. It seemed from... Look, this is how long ago? Ten or twelve years ago?
Ö:
Ten years.
A:
And I remember thinking, and this was never told to me, but I might have... I definitely read something about Bofors guns being sold. I don't even know if they're made in Sweden. I don't know where they're made. But I knew that there would be people who wouldn't be happy if these guns were sold to India, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Pakistanis, for example, sent a team to kill Olof Palme. But I mean that was just a thought. I never read anything about that. I just thought to myself: "You know, the Pakistanis and Indians don't like each other, the Hindus and the Moslems..."
D:
Well, as you told you before the interrogation started, there have been many theories about the murder, and the selling of Bofors guns is one of them, but we have come here to investigate the South African link. If we...if I may put some more questions...
A:
Please. Go ahead. Go ahead.
D:
...concerning Craig Williamson. When did you first meet with him? Which year?
It's a really hard question that... I would say... When did I first meet with him? When did. he come back from Sweden?
D:
1980.
A:
Then I met him in 1980. Approximately.
D:
But you said before that you went to school together.
A:
I was at the same school with him. I didn't know him at school. I 'm older than Craig Williamson. You know, if you're at school and you're two or three years older, you don't see the boys beneath you.
D:
All right. So it was in the beginning of the 1980's that you got acquainted with him.
A:
Yes.
D:
And you have been that ever since?
A:
Yes, I have been. But when I say "acquainted with him", I don't see a lot of him. I don't see a lot of Craig Williamson. I don't see him once a week, once a month. I see him maybe once every six months. I might... Just occasionally you know I might see him.
D:
Has he ever told you about his undercover work?
A:
No.
D:
I mean, it would have been normal that you had asked him questions or he would have boasted about it or something like that.
A:
I always thought that Craig Williamson did speak too much about his work. That was my opinion. The reason I thought that was not because he boasted. He didn't really... You know, our relationship was never one... Well, simply he didn't boast to me about what he did. He didn't and I didn't really ask him. I mean, occasionally you know he would say, well... He really told me very very little. Very very little. What he spoke about was actually what was revealed in the papers and then he would maybe boast about what was in the papers. But apart from that, no. He didn't tell me about any work that he was involved with. I have no information, and I didn't ask about any work that he was involved with at the time, in operations that he was running or anything like that. Nothing like that. I didn't ask him and it was never told to me. I thought that he talked too much. My reason for saying that is that I thought that he's got a high profile and it wasn't good to have such a high profile in my opinion. It could be dangerous. Not dangerous from the point of...because someone... If there was a change of government, the authorities would prosecute him or grab him. No, I didn't think that at all. That never crossed... I didn't worry about that. What I thought about was: I used to think, you know...the ANC is a
A:
It's a really hard question that... I would say... When did I first meet with him? When did. he come back from Sweden?
D:
1980.
A:
Then I met him in 1980. Approximately.
D:
But you said before that you went to school together.
A:
I was at the same school with him. I didn't know him at school. I 'm older than Craig Williamson. You know, if you're at school and you're two or three years older, you don't see the boys beneath you.
D:
All right. So it was in the beginning of the 1980's that you got acquainted with him.
A:
Yes.
D:
And you have been that ever since?
A:
Yes, I have been. But when I say "acquainted with him", I don't see a lot of him. I don't see a lot of Craig Williamson. I don't see him once a week, once a month. I see him maybe once every six months. I might... Just occasionally you know I might see him.
D:
Has he ever told you about his undercover work?
A:
No.
D:
I mean, it would have been normal that you had asked him questions or he would have boasted about it or something like that.
A:
I always thought that Craig Williamson did speak too much about his work. That was my opinion. The reason I thought that was not because he boasted. He didn't really... You know, our relationship was never one... Well, simply he didn't boast to me about what he did. He didn't and I didn't really ask him. I mean, occasionally you know he would say, well... He really told me very very little. Very very little. What he spoke about was actually what was revealed in the papers and then he would maybe boast about what was in the papers. But apart from that, no. He didn't tell me about any work that he was involved with. I have no information, and I didn't ask about any work that he was involved with at the time, in operations that he was running or anything like that. Nothing like that. I didn't ask him and it was never told to me. I thought that he talked too much. My reason for saying that is that I thought that he's got a high profile and it wasn't good to have such a high profile in my opinion. It could be dangerous. Not dangerous from the point of...because someone... If there was a change of government, the authorities would prosecute him or grab him. No, I didn't think that at all. That never crossed... I didn't worry about that. What I thought about was: I used to think, you know...the ANC is a
banned organisation at that time, was a banned organisation. And they were fighting a liberation struggle. And I thought: maybe some young guy who wants to make a name for himself will take a shot at Craig Williamson. And then he'll be a big hero for having killed the super-spy. And I felt that Craig was silly to talk and to maintain a high profile, because he made himself a potential target, not by the authorities or by government agencies, but by some unknown person who just wanted to make a name for himself. That was my opinion.
D:
Has Craig Williamson ever, in your presence, made any comment upon the murder of Olof Palme?
A:
Never. Not once.
Ö:
Do you know any Swede?
A:
Any Swede?
Ö:
Yes.
A:MFL
Ö:
Yes.
A:D:
When?
Before Olof Palme was murdered. You say "when?" Maybe two years before. You know I'd have to go and look at my passport to see when my passport was stamped. I can't really remember.
Ö:
That was the beginning of the eighties...
A:
When was Olof Palme murdered?
Ö:
86.
banned organisation at that time, was a banned organisation. And they were fighting a liberation struggle. And I thought: maybe some young guy who wants to make a name for himself will take a shot at Craig Williamson. And then he'll be a big hero for having killed the super-spy. And I felt that Craig was silly to talk and to maintain a high profile, because he made himself a potential target, not by the authorities or by government agencies, but by some unknown person who just wanted to make a name for himself. That was my opinion.
D:
Has Craig Williamson ever, in your presence, made any comment upon the murder of Olof Palme?
A:
Never. Not once.
Ö:
Do you know any Swede?
A:
Any Swede?
Ö:
Yes.
A:MFL
Ö:
Yes.
A:D:
When?
Before Olof Palme was murdered. You say "when?" Maybe two years before. You know I'd have to go and look at my passport to see when my passport was stamped. I can't really remember.
I would say it was the beginning of the eighties. At the beginning of the eighties. Before 'I
Ö:
This other Swede you mentioned, this journalist, was he a correspondent down here for a Swedish newspaper?
A:
You know, I didn't really know him well. I kind of knew him through his newsletters. I don't... He might have been a correspondent. He might have been a correspondent at some stage. And then I think he retired and lived in Johannesburg and he used 10 send out newsletters around the world. I think that's how he more or less made a living you know. I think he sold his newsletters. People subscribed to them and...
Ö:
Is he still in South Africa?
A:
No, he died about... I think he died about two years ago I think. Roughly two years ago.
Ö:A:
I think they knew... Yes. I don't know how friendly. When you say "Was he a friend?" | don't know how friendly, but yes I think they were acquainted.
D:A:
Yes, I've seen him in South Africa. He came here on holiday. He came here on holiday. He stayed...he went down to Natal, to the coast and he stayed there. He had a holiday there for about... I don't know how long. A week, two weeks. I think not even, no: about a week, I think it was a week. I think he was in the country for about two weeks.
D:
When would that have been?
A:
When would that have been...? You know, it's very hard for me to remember. What I'm trying to say is: Was it before or after Olof Palme's death? I honestly can't remember. What I'm trying to think now to myself is: did I see him for the last time here. or did I see him for the last time in England? Did I... Did he come here for a holiday and then did I go there? No, but he came here for a holiday. No, it was... The last time I saw him, he came here. The last time I saw him he came here.
Ö:
Do you know where he lived when he came down here?
A:
Yes, he stayed in an hotel in Durban.
Ö:
No, I don't mean... I mean where he has his residence. Where he was living. Was he still in the UK?
A:
I would say it was the beginning of the eighties. At the beginning of the eighties. Before 'I
Ö:
This other Swede you mentioned, this journalist, was he a correspondent down here for a Swedish newspaper?
A:
You know, I didn't really know him well. I kind of knew him through his newsletters. I don't... He might have been a correspondent. He might have been a correspondent at some stage. And then I think he retired and lived in Johannesburg and he used 10 send out newsletters around the world. I think that's how he more or less made a living you know. I think he sold his newsletters. People subscribed to them and...
Ö:
Is he still in South Africa?
A:
No, he died about... I think he died about two years ago I think. Roughly two years ago.
Ö:A:
I think they knew... Yes. I don't know how friendly. When you say "Was he a friend?" | don't know how friendly, but yes I think they were acquainted.
D:A:
Yes, I've seen him in South Africa. He came here on holiday. He came here on holiday. He stayed...he went down to Natal, to the coast and he stayed there. He had a holiday there for about... I don't know how long. A week, two weeks. I think not even, no: about a week, I think it was a week. I think he was in the country for about two weeks.
D:
When would that have been?
A:
When would that have been...? You know, it's very hard for me to remember. What I'm trying to say is: Was it before or after Olof Palme's death? I honestly can't remember. What I'm trying to think now to myself is: did I see him for the last time here. or did I see him for the last time in England? Did I... Did he come here for a holiday and then did I go there? No, but he came here for a holiday. No, it was... The last time I saw him, he came here. The last time I saw him he came here.
Ö:
Do you know where he lived when he came down here?
A:
Yes, he stayed in an hotel in Durban.
Ö:
No, I don't mean... I mean where he has his residence. Where he was living. Was he still in the UK?
What did he talk about when he talked about Sweden, for instance?
A:
When he talked about Sweden? I always told him that I wanted to go to Sweden because I thought it was a lovely country. I'd heard... I've never been to Sweden and I've heard that it's a very nice country. And I did actually... There was another acquaintance of mine whose mother or grandmother was Swedish. He only sold me a chaingay chlebiaÖ:
Why?
A:
A:D:A:D:
|A:Ö:
What did he talk about when he talked about Sweden, for instance?
A:
When he talked about Sweden? I always told him that I wanted to go to Sweden because I thought it was a lovely country. I'd heard... I've never been to Sweden and I've heard that it's a very nice country. And I did actually... There was another acquaintance of mine whose mother or grandmother was Swedish. He only sold me a chaingay chlebiaÖ:
