Uppslag i samma avsnitt:
- - 1 (17) -
This is the record of the interrogation of EUGENE Alexander De Kock date of birth 29 January 1949, held on Friday 1996-10-11
, commencing at 17:15
.
The interrogation is being held on the premises of The Special Investigation Team, 13 Church Square, Pretoria.
Leading the interrogation is Detective Superintendent Hans Ölvebro, assisted by Chief Prosecutor Jan Danielsson.
Also present are
- lawyer Hugo Schalk,
- Director Ivor Human,
- Senior Superintendent Casper Jonker,
- Captain Wentzel Dredericks and
- Inspector Mark Whale.
The interrogation is being recorded on tape and is being held in English.
Eugene De Kock has been asked to give an account of the knowledge he has concerning a possible South African link to the murder of Olof Palme.
Översättarens anmärkingar: Där Eugene De Kock talar afrikaans, transkriberas meningen följd av en engelsk översättning inom parentes.
Störande ljud förekommer och markeras: (störande ljud). Där stavningen av vissa namn är osäker, följs de av ett frågetecken inom parentes: (?)
Ö = Hans Ölvebro
D = Jan Danielsson
K = Eugene De Kock
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Mister De Kock, we had some problems with the tape recorder, but maybe you will take the information from the start.
Eugene De Kock: Is it right from the beginning?
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yes please.
Anknytning:
HB 16609 (PM SYDAFRIKA Riian Stander , KÄLLA A)
HB17666=> HBE 17666 (UD-KONTAKT COMM. PRESSRAPPORT SYDAFRIKA
HB17676=> HBE 17676 (PM, )
HB 17680 (BREV ÖVERSÄTTNING TILL SÄK)
HB 17682 (PM. Ifrågasatt föregivande av allmän ställning (Tommy Lindström))
HB17684=> HBM 17684 (Referens behövs
)
HBD 17830 (Förhör med Dirk Coetzee)
HBF 17833 (Uppgifter lämnade av Philip Powell)
HBI17836=> HBK 17836 (Förhör av Anthony White)
HBJ 17837 (Förhör med Craig Williamson)
HO 17671 (Referens behövs
)
- - 1 (17) -
This is the record of the interrogation of EUGENE Alexander De Kock date of birth 29 January 1949, held on Friday 1996-10-11
, commencing at 17:15
.
The interrogation is being held on the premises of The Special Investigation Team, 13 Church Square, Pretoria.
Leading the interrogation is Detective Superintendent Hans Ölvebro, assisted by Chief Prosecutor Jan Danielsson.
Also present are
- lawyer Hugo Schalk,
- Director Ivor Human,
- Senior Superintendent Casper Jonker,
- Captain Wentzel Dredericks and
- Inspector Mark Whale.
The interrogation is being recorded on tape and is being held in English.
Eugene De Kock has been asked to give an account of the knowledge he has concerning a possible South African link to the murder of Olof Palme.
Översättarens anmärkingar: Där Eugene De Kock talar afrikaans, transkriberas meningen följd av en engelsk översättning inom parentes.
Störande ljud förekommer och markeras: (störande ljud). Där stavningen av vissa namn är osäker, följs de av ett frågetecken inom parentes: (?)
Ö = Hans Ölvebro
D = Jan Danielsson
K = Eugene De Kock
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Mister De Kock, we had some problems with the tape recorder, but maybe you will take the information from the start.
Eugene De Kock: Is it right from the beginning?
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yes please.
Anknytning:
HB 16609 (PM SYDAFRIKA Riian Stander , KÄLLA A)
HB17666=> HBE 17666 (UD-KONTAKT COMM. PRESSRAPPORT SYDAFRIKA
HB17676=> HBE 17676 (PM, )
HB 17680 (BREV ÖVERSÄTTNING TILL SÄK)
HB 17682 (PM. Ifrågasatt föregivande av allmän ställning (Tommy Lindström))
HB17684=> HBM 17684 (Referens behövs
)
HBD 17830 (Förhör med Dirk Coetzee)
HBF 17833 (Uppgifter lämnade av Philip Powell)
HBI17836=> HBK 17836 (Förhör av Anthony White)
HBJ 17837 (Förhör med Craig Williamson)
HO 17671 (Referens behövs
)
- - 10 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: He worked in the...he worked for one of the front companies. Ask Craig Williamson
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: But he didn't refer to any other person or so?
Eugene De Kock: He didn't refer that he was involved in this operation, which is non impossible.
It ... he was in a front company, which...now which fell under the Longreach and the International Freedom, you know, Foundation umbrella.
And that is where he gained his knowledge. So it's not impossible that he was involved in an operation himself. That is not beyond the ...
The StratCom unit here, the Strategic Communications Unit here, would never execute, well, acts like that, but they would plan them.
Or they would say:
- "Listen, oh, we have a target, this is the target. Can you go there and execute the target?"
So I ... will not be surprised if he has more personal internal knowledge of this whole matter.
I know that he denies it, but he knows that i know that he's lying. He knows.
And it's like he knew this man on a very personal basis.
It's not that he had to look for a name. He didn't have to look in ... he didn't have to look in his notebook. He did have a notebook of some sort. I cannot give you a description of it. The name he gave to me, and the address and the telephone number he gave to me out of the notebook.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Well, if we can go on and you tell us about the information you had from Mister (störande ljud) Tommy Lindström.
Eugene De Kock: That is not much. He asked a lot of questions. I gave him a lot less than is in here.
I think if you show your notes, that is basically what we gave him.
In the beginning I was quite depressed. I felt that this is the real ... that there was a real thing, but eventually he was too quiet for an interrogator in any case.
And he actually advised us to keep certain things back. Why I don't know, because that's not the usual thing for an interrogator. I mean usually they want everything.
I made a short list here of information he, you know, he gave us. Because I didn't know what the calibre of the firearm was and the type. He said it was a revolver 357 Magnum or a 375 Magnum.
I didn't know how many shots was fired. I asked him and he said there was one shot fired at the minister and one at his wife. I don't know if it's like that.
I don't know. He said he was walking and it was at night. He saw ... he said that the minister's wife saw the face of the shooter.
I then advised him that the safety
- - 10 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: He worked in the...he worked for one of the front companies. Ask Craig Williamson
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: But he didn't refer to any other person or so?
Eugene De Kock: He didn't refer that he was involved in this operation, which is non impossible.
It ... he was in a front company, which...now which fell under the Longreach and the International Freedom, you know, Foundation umbrella.
And that is where he gained his knowledge. So it's not impossible that he was involved in an operation himself. That is not beyond the ...
The StratCom unit here, the Strategic Communications Unit here, would never execute, well, acts like that, but they would plan them.
Or they would say:
- "Listen, oh, we have a target, this is the target. Can you go there and execute the target?"
So I ... will not be surprised if he has more personal internal knowledge of this whole matter.
I know that he denies it, but he knows that i know that he's lying. He knows.
And it's like he knew this man on a very personal basis.
It's not that he had to look for a name. He didn't have to look in ... he didn't have to look in his notebook. He did have a notebook of some sort. I cannot give you a description of it. The name he gave to me, and the address and the telephone number he gave to me out of the notebook.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Well, if we can go on and you tell us about the information you had from Mister (störande ljud) Tommy Lindström.
Eugene De Kock: That is not much. He asked a lot of questions. I gave him a lot less than is in here.
I think if you show your notes, that is basically what we gave him.
In the beginning I was quite depressed. I felt that this is the real ... that there was a real thing, but eventually he was too quiet for an interrogator in any case.
And he actually advised us to keep certain things back. Why I don't know, because that's not the usual thing for an interrogator. I mean usually they want everything.
I made a short list here of information he, you know, he gave us. Because I didn't know what the calibre of the firearm was and the type. He said it was a revolver 357 Magnum or a 375 Magnum.
I didn't know how many shots was fired. I asked him and he said there was one shot fired at the minister and one at his wife. I don't know if it's like that.
I don't know. He said he was walking and it was at night. He saw ... he said that the minister's wife saw the face of the shooter.
I then advised him that the safety
- - 11 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: of the wife should be upgraded quite strenuously, because I mean she will be in a position to identify, should that be the truth of what he told me.
He asked me why a revolver was used and why the type of calibre, and then why do i think only one shot was fired?
I think that about ... was there anything else?
Oh yeah, then he asked me ... then he asked me:
- "What would the price of such a shooting be?"
and I said that I've never ... yeah, well that I never kill people for the market, so I don't know what the price is for a president, a king or a minister.
What I do know in the intelligence world and there is nobody that's going to ... that is going to tell me otherwise because not even the Russians touch them, is that there is an absolute taboo on shooting kings, presidents, ministers.
I mean somebody took a shot at the Pope not very long ago and you could see the Bulgarian Secret Service behind it, but there was no proof.
There is a taboo on doing it.
The agents will get stuck into each other, organisations will get stuck into each other, but you don't never touch ministers or presidents, except if, you know, further up north in Africa.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: What's your opinion about using these kind of weapon?
Eugene De Kock: Well, and I would suggest that you also ask him for his notes, so that he can give it to you.
This type of weapon, a revolver, it doesn't throw out shells, so you ... there is no shells to pick up for ballistic purposes. Secondly a revolver never jams. You have six shots.
A pistol might jam. You may have a bad magazine, you may have bad feeding.
The type of calibre ... it is the second to most powerful handgun in the world. I mean except for that you have the 44 Magnum after that. You have the 44 yeah Automag, the 375 is, as far as I'm concerned, the second most powerful. You have various types of ammunition for it and the power.
I can't say if these people you know loaded their, yeah well their own ammunition you know using hot loads or whatever, but and I don't know what type of round they used, but at a very short range, fired directly to a person you will have, you know, massive trauma and you will have massive inner haemorrhage.
If you hit him in an arm you will take him down. You could take the arm of. The same with the leg, it depends on the angle and if you hit any, you know, of the bone.
If you only hit the tissue you might have a lot of trauma and damage to the surrounding tissue etcetera.
But a head shot, a chest shot, a stomach shot usually at all stages could be fatal, or would be fatal.
I don't know why. If he fired a shot at a man's wife I don't know. If he was a good shot, then he was really an assassin, well why miss her?
Maybe she wasn't on the agenda, so
- - 11 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: of the wife should be upgraded quite strenuously, because I mean she will be in a position to identify, should that be the truth of what he told me.
He asked me why a revolver was used and why the type of calibre, and then why do i think only one shot was fired?
I think that about ... was there anything else?
Oh yeah, then he asked me ... then he asked me:
- "What would the price of such a shooting be?"
and I said that I've never ... yeah, well that I never kill people for the market, so I don't know what the price is for a president, a king or a minister.
What I do know in the intelligence world and there is nobody that's going to ... that is going to tell me otherwise because not even the Russians touch them, is that there is an absolute taboo on shooting kings, presidents, ministers.
I mean somebody took a shot at the Pope not very long ago and you could see the Bulgarian Secret Service behind it, but there was no proof.
There is a taboo on doing it.
The agents will get stuck into each other, organisations will get stuck into each other, but you don't never touch ministers or presidents, except if, you know, further up north in Africa.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: What's your opinion about using these kind of weapon?
Eugene De Kock: Well, and I would suggest that you also ask him for his notes, so that he can give it to you.
This type of weapon, a revolver, it doesn't throw out shells, so you ... there is no shells to pick up for ballistic purposes. Secondly a revolver never jams. You have six shots.
A pistol might jam. You may have a bad magazine, you may have bad feeding.
The type of calibre ... it is the second to most powerful handgun in the world. I mean except for that you have the 44 Magnum after that. You have the 44 yeah Automag, the 375 is, as far as I'm concerned, the second most powerful. You have various types of ammunition for it and the power.
I can't say if these people you know loaded their, yeah well their own ammunition you know using hot loads or whatever, but and I don't know what type of round they used, but at a very short range, fired directly to a person you will have, you know, massive trauma and you will have massive inner haemorrhage.
If you hit him in an arm you will take him down. You could take the arm of. The same with the leg, it depends on the angle and if you hit any, you know, of the bone.
If you only hit the tissue you might have a lot of trauma and damage to the surrounding tissue etcetera.
But a head shot, a chest shot, a stomach shot usually at all stages could be fatal, or would be fatal.
I don't know why. If he fired a shot at a man's wife I don't know. If he was a good shot, then he was really an assassin, well why miss her?
Maybe she wasn't on the agenda, so
- - 12 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: he kept to orders.
Maybe he was nervous after firing the first shot.
Usually if you go and you look at all your old poachers and we also hated it. And snipers don't do it. You never fire a second shot, because your first shot usually people will get a general direction: 180 degrees.
Your second shot could (störande ljud) give you more of a line of direction where it's coming from. It depends.
This happened in a street. There's a lot of people. One shot might have people looking around. A second shot will pinpoint another man using a firearm.
That is my own opinion and also talking from experience: quite a lot.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay. We have to take a short pause because we have to change the recorder.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: I would like to come back to your conversation with Mister Philip Powell.
Eugene De Kock: Okay.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: As I noted, Mister Philip Powell told you about this man, his name and address. and stated that it was a Swedish intelligence officer with the rank of captain.
Eugene De Kock: A former
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: A former...?
Eugene De Kock: A former Swedish intelligence officer.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Did he ... and did ... he said so, as I understood you, in the event you would go to Turkey and wanted to look him up. Is that correctly understood?
Eugene De Kock: Well, he knew that I was travelling overseas quite a lot, and he said if you go to Turkey or you want to meet the man, or you need the man, you know, he has this address.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: In my view it would then have been normal if he had told you, for instance. his age, his fitness, his capacity...
- - 12 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: he kept to orders.
Maybe he was nervous after firing the first shot.
Usually if you go and you look at all your old poachers and we also hated it. And snipers don't do it. You never fire a second shot, because your first shot usually people will get a general direction: 180 degrees.
Your second shot could (störande ljud) give you more of a line of direction where it's coming from. It depends.
This happened in a street. There's a lot of people. One shot might have people looking around. A second shot will pinpoint another man using a firearm.
That is my own opinion and also talking from experience: quite a lot.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay. We have to take a short pause because we have to change the recorder.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: I would like to come back to your conversation with Mister Philip Powell.
Eugene De Kock: Okay.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: As I noted, Mister Philip Powell told you about this man, his name and address. and stated that it was a Swedish intelligence officer with the rank of captain.
Eugene De Kock: A former
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: A former...?
Eugene De Kock: A former Swedish intelligence officer.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Did he ... and did ... he said so, as I understood you, in the event you would go to Turkey and wanted to look him up. Is that correctly understood?
Eugene De Kock: Well, he knew that I was travelling overseas quite a lot, and he said if you go to Turkey or you want to meet the man, or you need the man, you know, he has this address.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: In my view it would then have been normal if he had told you, for instance. his age, his fitness, his capacity...
- - 13 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: If I asked. Because... (störande ljud) ... the intelligence services ... but you do not go and ask people out. If a man does not volunteer information like that, you don't ask him or you don't question him about it.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Yes, but he told you this with a purpose that you may want to look him up in person in Turkey.
Eugene De Kock: Yeah, yeah
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: So it would have been normal if he had told you how you could recognize him and use him.
Eugene De Kock: No, not specifically, because that wouldn't have made ... that would ... thar. well that is actually not important, because you can use a child of sixteen or you can use a man of sixty years old.
It depends on what you want done and it depends on the previous experience of this man. The age has got nothing to do with it.
Infirmity, maybe yes, but age has got nothing to do with the ability of a man to kill, whether it's a doctor, a minister, a priest or whatever. Age has never been a problem.
People like to link it to age. Age has got nothing to do with it.
What old operators do is to compensate for age and they change their habits in whatever operations they will do. They will still succeed but they will change their habits. They will rather go for long distance or exposures where before they would have, you know, done a hand-to-hand or with a knife or a pistol.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: But what I was asking for was rather if he ... if he gave you some sort of information which made it possible for you to identify the person, such as age, hair colour, teeth, length, height.
Eugene De Kock: No he did not, except that he was a former intelligence officer and then also a Swedish intelligence officer.
I had no other indication of what the man is even doing in Turkey now.
You know I don't suppose you just sit in Turkey for the rest of your life. I suppose you must be doing something, but I did not ask him that.
I did not ask him in what line of service he is now, or if he is running a business or whatever.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Can you give us more information about the kind of name? I mean, if you can say it's typical British or Italian or ...
- - 13 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: If I asked. Because... (störande ljud) ... the intelligence services ... but you do not go and ask people out. If a man does not volunteer information like that, you don't ask him or you don't question him about it.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Yes, but he told you this with a purpose that you may want to look him up in person in Turkey.
Eugene De Kock: Yeah, yeah
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: So it would have been normal if he had told you how you could recognize him and use him.
Eugene De Kock: No, not specifically, because that wouldn't have made ... that would ... thar. well that is actually not important, because you can use a child of sixteen or you can use a man of sixty years old.
It depends on what you want done and it depends on the previous experience of this man. The age has got nothing to do with it.
Infirmity, maybe yes, but age has got nothing to do with the ability of a man to kill, whether it's a doctor, a minister, a priest or whatever. Age has never been a problem.
People like to link it to age. Age has got nothing to do with it.
What old operators do is to compensate for age and they change their habits in whatever operations they will do. They will still succeed but they will change their habits. They will rather go for long distance or exposures where before they would have, you know, done a hand-to-hand or with a knife or a pistol.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: But what I was asking for was rather if he ... if he gave you some sort of information which made it possible for you to identify the person, such as age, hair colour, teeth, length, height.
Eugene De Kock: No he did not, except that he was a former intelligence officer and then also a Swedish intelligence officer.
I had no other indication of what the man is even doing in Turkey now.
You know I don't suppose you just sit in Turkey for the rest of your life. I suppose you must be doing something, but I did not ask him that.
I did not ask him in what line of service he is now, or if he is running a business or whatever.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Can you give us more information about the kind of name? I mean, if you can say it's typical British or Italian or ...
- - 14 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: No, it was definitely a Scandinavian. I won't say Swedish, but it was definitely Scandinavian.
For the purpose is that ... and you must please take it, I'm not joking, there's many of your surnames which is quite unpronounceable to us.
I think you have the same problem maybe with, you know, some of ours.
But it was ... it was ... it was not a difficult Swedish name. It was not a difficult Swedish name. It was something that I would be able to pronounce, but I do not make a connection with this Bertil Wedin person.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Could it have been Andersson? Nilsson? Rasmussen?
Eugene De Kock: I don't want to speculate. I'm going to do a summary disservice if I speculate.
I would really ... I cannot tell you since I've also made a statement how I have racked my brain and even before that, because I knew I was going to make a statement, so that I could provide and get it on record in court, for the purposes of court.
There is no doubt that ... now that Philip Powell has intimate knowledge of this information and of the operation itself.
I ... look I've been in the ... this line of work since 1978.
You usually have a shelf life of four or five years. I lasted until 1993, just before certain gentlemen then decided otherwise and then put a stop to it.
A good thing. I think also.
You ... through discussions I've done a lot of questioning. I've done soft interrogation, hard interrogation. I've talked to a lot of people.
There was no ... there was no stress with Philip Powell when talking to me. It came easy. It came as, I would say, you know, in a
- "well can you remember either that man that we caught for murder in Springs in 1969?"
- "Oh yes, it's so and so."
There was no hesitation, there was no blank, there was no search of memory. Not at all.
And I'm quite prepared, at any stage, to have Philip Powell sit there, attached to a polygraph machine.
I'll sit here attached to a polygraph machine. You can ask us the same questions. I ... I would actually ... I would actually, you know, prefer it.
And use a voice stress analyzer at the same time. Because I know that I'm not going to lose.
He is the one that's going to lose out. He knows ... you know I'm not doing this to make things, you know, difficult for him.
I mean we're trying to solve a murder you know, and that's it.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: May I ask you like this, although I think that you have answered the question already, in a way:
- Can you think of any means that would make Mister Philip Powell come forward and tell us what you have told us?
- - 14 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: No, it was definitely a Scandinavian. I won't say Swedish, but it was definitely Scandinavian.
For the purpose is that ... and you must please take it, I'm not joking, there's many of your surnames which is quite unpronounceable to us.
I think you have the same problem maybe with, you know, some of ours.
But it was ... it was ... it was not a difficult Swedish name. It was not a difficult Swedish name. It was something that I would be able to pronounce, but I do not make a connection with this Bertil Wedin person.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Could it have been Andersson? Nilsson? Rasmussen?
Eugene De Kock: I don't want to speculate. I'm going to do a summary disservice if I speculate.
I would really ... I cannot tell you since I've also made a statement how I have racked my brain and even before that, because I knew I was going to make a statement, so that I could provide and get it on record in court, for the purposes of court.
There is no doubt that ... now that Philip Powell has intimate knowledge of this information and of the operation itself.
I ... look I've been in the ... this line of work since 1978.
You usually have a shelf life of four or five years. I lasted until 1993, just before certain gentlemen then decided otherwise and then put a stop to it.
A good thing. I think also.
You ... through discussions I've done a lot of questioning. I've done soft interrogation, hard interrogation. I've talked to a lot of people.
There was no ... there was no stress with Philip Powell when talking to me. It came easy. It came as, I would say, you know, in a
- "well can you remember either that man that we caught for murder in Springs in 1969?"
- "Oh yes, it's so and so."
There was no hesitation, there was no blank, there was no search of memory. Not at all.
And I'm quite prepared, at any stage, to have Philip Powell sit there, attached to a polygraph machine.
I'll sit here attached to a polygraph machine. You can ask us the same questions. I ... I would actually ... I would actually, you know, prefer it.
And use a voice stress analyzer at the same time. Because I know that I'm not going to lose.
He is the one that's going to lose out. He knows ... you know I'm not doing this to make things, you know, difficult for him.
I mean we're trying to solve a murder you know, and that's it.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: May I ask you like this, although I think that you have answered the question already, in a way:
- Can you think of any means that would make Mister Philip Powell come forward and tell us what you have told us?
- - 15 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Say yes, and strangely enough I've also told Mister Tommy Lindström this, although he did not, I think, take it in.
I said to him that if Philip Powell is charged, as a senator, and he is charged with receiving those arms and ammunition, which was obviously illegal, and he could be made to stand trial, and the president of this country is prepared to give him an amnesty, just in exchange for the name and address, I think he would accept it.
If he still continues with it. then there must be a very good reason, or there must be something which is threatening, not him but somebody else which is close to him or something like that.
But I've made certain notes here for your people to look at, which i would have done if I'd been in your shoes.
But I've never been in Scandinavia, I don't know what powers you have, how your constitution works, except that it works.
I do not know how the rights of individuals is, but there are certain ways to cause some of these people, and then even a chap like this Bertil Wedin, to maybe come more openly to you concerning other matters.
The moment you get closer to home and they will know, the moment people start panicking: freezing of assets, things like that.
And if he is a Swedish citizen, which he obviously still is, you can hold him. accountable. I've made quite a few notes here.
What I want to tell you is that it's not Anthony White.(Pomn 1)
They can charge Anthony White for being caught for explosives at the Lesotho border post and two security policemen, South African security policemen was now killed on their way there to go and save him. I think one was a captain, de Bierstall (?)(Pomn 2), they hit a train.
They can charge Anthony White with ivory poaching and gold smuggling, you name it, and they might succeed if they have the necessary, you know, witnesses but he did not ... is not a shooter. Dirk Coetzee(Pomn 3) is after money: Dirk Coetzee wants...
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: How do you know that?
Eugene De Kock: Pardon?
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Is that the knowledge you have, that he wasn't the gunman, or is it that...
Eugene De Kock: Craig Williamson would never have used Anthony White, you know. Anthony White is Rhodesian, is ex-, you know, SAS.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: It's a conclusion you make.
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn 1: Anthony White
HBJ 17836 => HBK 17836 (Om Anthony White)
Pomn 2: Captain, de Bierstall.
Pomn 3: Dirk Coetzee
HBD17830 (Förhör med (Dirk Coetzee]])
- - 15 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Say yes, and strangely enough I've also told Mister Tommy Lindström this, although he did not, I think, take it in.
I said to him that if Philip Powell is charged, as a senator, and he is charged with receiving those arms and ammunition, which was obviously illegal, and he could be made to stand trial, and the president of this country is prepared to give him an amnesty, just in exchange for the name and address, I think he would accept it.
If he still continues with it. then there must be a very good reason, or there must be something which is threatening, not him but somebody else which is close to him or something like that.
But I've made certain notes here for your people to look at, which i would have done if I'd been in your shoes.
But I've never been in Scandinavia, I don't know what powers you have, how your constitution works, except that it works.
I do not know how the rights of individuals is, but there are certain ways to cause some of these people, and then even a chap like this Bertil Wedin, to maybe come more openly to you concerning other matters.
The moment you get closer to home and they will know, the moment people start panicking: freezing of assets, things like that.
And if he is a Swedish citizen, which he obviously still is, you can hold him. accountable. I've made quite a few notes here.
What I want to tell you is that it's not Anthony White.(Pomn 1)
They can charge Anthony White for being caught for explosives at the Lesotho border post and two security policemen, South African security policemen was now killed on their way there to go and save him. I think one was a captain, de Bierstall (?)(Pomn 2), they hit a train.
They can charge Anthony White with ivory poaching and gold smuggling, you name it, and they might succeed if they have the necessary, you know, witnesses but he did not ... is not a shooter. Dirk Coetzee(Pomn 3) is after money: Dirk Coetzee wants...
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: How do you know that?
Eugene De Kock: Pardon?
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Is that the knowledge you have, that he wasn't the gunman, or is it that...
Eugene De Kock: Craig Williamson would never have used Anthony White, you know. Anthony White is Rhodesian, is ex-, you know, SAS.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: It's a conclusion you make.
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn 1: Anthony White
HBJ 17836 => HBK 17836 (Om Anthony White)
Pomn 2: Captain, de Bierstall.
Pomn 3: Dirk Coetzee
HBD17830 (Förhör med (Dirk Coetzee]])
- - 16 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: It is, yeah, it's ... and it's one based on experience.
I would use a Swedish citizen, if not a Scandinavian citizen, because it's a matter of fitting in.
If I walk in Stockholm, you will know that I'm a foreigner, and you have to speak ... and you have to be able to speak the language. You have to blend in.
I have no doubt that there must have been a form of surveillance.
If there wasn't surveillance, there must have been a leakage from within a household or whatever.
If there wasn't a leakage, then there might have been a penetration of the household by a love affair with somebody, or whatever.
I've made quite substantial notes here. But that is conclusions.
Concerning ... now Peter Casselton, you might get closer, but he made it clear to me, and that's the first time I heard that there's money involved, was Peter Casselton was talking about money and then Tommy Lindström was talking about money.
That's the first time that I heard about money and that's long after I made my statement in court.
I'm not interested in the money. Peter Casselton is after the money and he's after Craig Williamson. I don't hate Craig Williamson.
He was involved in break-ins there and him and , they were in the security police here still.
They raided or they broke into the ... either one of the anti-apartheid offices or the ANC office, and they even stole, on the outside of the door there was some musical instrument which they used.
They press a button, it's a door-opener type of thing. They stole that and they also brought that and that was used in headquarters to open their office, then a G2 section. That is the way they brought back a souvenir of the success of their raid in Sweden.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: I think, and Mister Jan Danielsson thinks the same, that we have to go through your notes that you have handed over.
Eugene De Kock: Yeah.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: And if it's possible, can we come back and put other kind of questions and ...
Eugene De Kock:ä: You can ... you can tap whatever knowledge you want.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yeah.
Eugene De Kock: There is nothing that I will hold back. It's up to a gentleman here and to Mister Benson now.
HBL17741 => HB17741 (KRYPTOFAX, AMB)
HBH 17835 (HBH - Louis van Niekerk)
- - 16 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: It is, yeah, it's ... and it's one based on experience.
I would use a Swedish citizen, if not a Scandinavian citizen, because it's a matter of fitting in.
If I walk in Stockholm, you will know that I'm a foreigner, and you have to speak ... and you have to be able to speak the language. You have to blend in.
I have no doubt that there must have been a form of surveillance.
If there wasn't surveillance, there must have been a leakage from within a household or whatever.
If there wasn't a leakage, then there might have been a penetration of the household by a love affair with somebody, or whatever.
I've made quite substantial notes here. But that is conclusions.
Concerning ... now Peter Casselton, you might get closer, but he made it clear to me, and that's the first time I heard that there's money involved, was Peter Casselton was talking about money and then Tommy Lindström was talking about money.
That's the first time that I heard about money and that's long after I made my statement in court.
I'm not interested in the money. Peter Casselton is after the money and he's after Craig Williamson. I don't hate Craig Williamson.
He was involved in break-ins there and him and , they were in the security police here still.
They raided or they broke into the ... either one of the anti-apartheid offices or the ANC office, and they even stole, on the outside of the door there was some musical instrument which they used.
They press a button, it's a door-opener type of thing. They stole that and they also brought that and that was used in headquarters to open their office, then a G2 section. That is the way they brought back a souvenir of the success of their raid in Sweden.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: I think, and Mister Jan Danielsson thinks the same, that we have to go through your notes that you have handed over.
Eugene De Kock: Yeah.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: And if it's possible, can we come back and put other kind of questions and ...
Eugene De Kock:ä: You can ... you can tap whatever knowledge you want.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yeah.
Eugene De Kock: There is nothing that I will hold back. It's up to a gentleman here and to Mister Benson now.
HBL17741 => HB17741 (KRYPTOFAX, AMB)
HBH 17835 (HBH - Louis van Niekerk)
- - 17 (17) -
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay, we'll take a short break.
Eugene De Kock: I'm not ... I'm sorry ...
END OF INTERROGATION: 18:10
(Namnteckning)
- - 17 (17) -
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay, we'll take a short break.
Eugene De Kock: I'm not ... I'm sorry ...
END OF INTERROGATION: 18:10
(Namnteckning)
- - 2 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Okay. In October 1993, the now senator Philip Powell(Pomn 1) gave me the name of a man which I now will call The Shooter.
This man was involved in the killing of Olof Palme. He was the man that fired the shots. I unfortunately does not have his name at this stage. It was in my book, which I managed to recover with my arrest, and destroyed it.
The name, basically, if I think back does not coincide with that of Bertil Wedin,(Pomn 2) you know the sound doesn't make sense.
What Philip Powell made very very clear was that this man was a Swedish intelligence officer, and then I'm talking about a commissioned officer, and I have a vague recollection that it was a captain. That was the rank and I'm not sure if you have those ranks or whatever.
Now there was a very ... there was a very open sort of relationship between myself and Philip Powell. We ... there was a lot of trust between the two of us.
It is after I supplied them with about 60 tons of arms, ammunition, in training aids and some arms, yeah and in explosives. So there was a very close relationship at that stage between us.
The reason he gave me this information was that he said that if I would ever travel to Turkey, and I want to look up this man, or if I need his help or I want to go and visit him, then I'm welcome to do so.
And he gave me the name of the man, his post box number, there was a street number, there was a telephone number. And it was not something like Cyprus or northern Cyprus, it was Turkey itself. That is how he gave it to me.
To give you a background on Philip Powell, is that he worked for the South African police in (störande ljud), which was called STRATCOM which stands for Strategic Communications, which was involved in propaganda, you know counterpropaganda and then also in more or less dirty tricks.
He then left the South African police force and he joined a front company of the military intelligence unit that was known as Longreach. Now Longreach was a project of the army.
The grouping it under ... the grouping that it was allocated to was DCI, that is: Directorate of Covert Intelligence or for covert information.
I know that specific unit very well, because we also operated together at various stages.
There was also a second body, which was international: the Freedom Foundation, which was also a project of DCI and it also dovetailed with Operation Longreach.
Now Craig Williamson(Pomn 3) was the chief of Longreach.
I don't know who the other persons were. I know that a former policeman called , who is now the owner of a bar and a restaurant at Quay Four in Cape Town, it's on the docks, it's very very popular.
He was also involved in Longreach. They used it, just by the way, they used to fly away, him and his girlfriend, they used to fly on a Friday,
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn 1) Philip Powell (HBF17833 m.fl.)
Pomn 2)Bertil Wedin (HBB4111 m.fl.)
Pomn 3) Craig Williamson (HBJ17837 m.fl.)
- - 2 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Okay. In October 1993, the now senator Philip Powell(Pomn 1) gave me the name of a man which I now will call The Shooter.
This man was involved in the killing of Olof Palme. He was the man that fired the shots. I unfortunately does not have his name at this stage. It was in my book, which I managed to recover with my arrest, and destroyed it.
The name, basically, if I think back does not coincide with that of Bertil Wedin,(Pomn 2) you know the sound doesn't make sense.
What Philip Powell made very very clear was that this man was a Swedish intelligence officer, and then I'm talking about a commissioned officer, and I have a vague recollection that it was a captain. That was the rank and I'm not sure if you have those ranks or whatever.
Now there was a very ... there was a very open sort of relationship between myself and Philip Powell. We ... there was a lot of trust between the two of us.
It is after I supplied them with about 60 tons of arms, ammunition, in training aids and some arms, yeah and in explosives. So there was a very close relationship at that stage between us.
The reason he gave me this information was that he said that if I would ever travel to Turkey, and I want to look up this man, or if I need his help or I want to go and visit him, then I'm welcome to do so.
And he gave me the name of the man, his post box number, there was a street number, there was a telephone number. And it was not something like Cyprus or northern Cyprus, it was Turkey itself. That is how he gave it to me.
To give you a background on Philip Powell, is that he worked for the South African police in (störande ljud), which was called STRATCOM which stands for Strategic Communications, which was involved in propaganda, you know counterpropaganda and then also in more or less dirty tricks.
He then left the South African police force and he joined a front company of the military intelligence unit that was known as Longreach. Now Longreach was a project of the army.
The grouping it under ... the grouping that it was allocated to was DCI, that is: Directorate of Covert Intelligence or for covert information.
I know that specific unit very well, because we also operated together at various stages.
There was also a second body, which was international: the Freedom Foundation, which was also a project of DCI and it also dovetailed with Operation Longreach.
Now Craig Williamson(Pomn 3) was the chief of Longreach.
I don't know who the other persons were. I know that a former policeman called , who is now the owner of a bar and a restaurant at Quay Four in Cape Town, it's on the docks, it's very very popular.
He was also involved in Longreach. They used it, just by the way, they used to fly away, him and his girlfriend, they used to fly on a Friday,
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn 1) Philip Powell (HBF17833 m.fl.)
Pomn 2)Bertil Wedin (HBB4111 m.fl.)
Pomn 3) Craig Williamson (HBJ17837 m.fl.)
- - 3 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: you know, evening, fly to London on army funds, shop at Harrods and fly back on Sunday evenings again. So it just gives you now the scope of the money that people had.
After, and just by the way: after the closing of Longreach, DCI was quite in a tizz, because they accused Craig Williamson of defrauding between eight and ten million Rand, which they still today, well, couldn't find at all. So that is just by the way.
The International Freedom Foundation, in charge there was , also then a military intelligence operator. They have changed their name in 1994.
After my arrest, it was changed to the ERA, which stands for Executive Research Associates, or Agents, and they sell information, you know, corporate information concerning, you know, companies, investments, which they sell to corporations or to other countries which is interested in you know investing here.
I'll just have a look here. I'll come back to anything there if there's ... oh yeah, there was a very very strong American link.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Maybe we should say here that Mister De Kock is referring to a written documents which he has in his hands.
Eugene De Kock: Yeah, well I do it for the sake of completion. I don't want to jump around. I've put it all in sequence so as to benefit yourself and to save time.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: And a copy has been handed over to us to us, so...
Eugene De Kock: It's been handed over to ... if you want an original, you're also welcome and then I'll keep a copy, so I have no problem with that and then you have it in handwriting as well and I'm quite prepared to do that. "Ik se nou" (I am saying now).
FHL Hans Ölvebro: You were starting to talk about an American connection.
Eugene De Kock: Oh yeah. Philip Powell made it very clear that there was ... that there was American connection, a very strong American connection, between the International Freedom Foundation as well as the Longreach company, and that there was a definite or implied, or definitely implied CIA link. There is no doubt about it.
Philip Powell enjoyed a lot of trust in this company where he operated in. I'll give you another example later, is that he had to fly to Pakistan and pick up two or three of the chief Mujahedin, you know, of those leaders and had to fly them in to Jambal, which was UNITA headquarters in
- - 3 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: you know, evening, fly to London on army funds, shop at Harrods and fly back on Sunday evenings again. So it just gives you now the scope of the money that people had.
After, and just by the way: after the closing of Longreach, DCI was quite in a tizz, because they accused Craig Williamson of defrauding between eight and ten million Rand, which they still today, well, couldn't find at all. So that is just by the way.
The International Freedom Foundation, in charge there was , also then a military intelligence operator. They have changed their name in 1994.
After my arrest, it was changed to the ERA, which stands for Executive Research Associates, or Agents, and they sell information, you know, corporate information concerning, you know, companies, investments, which they sell to corporations or to other countries which is interested in you know investing here.
I'll just have a look here. I'll come back to anything there if there's ... oh yeah, there was a very very strong American link.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Maybe we should say here that Mister De Kock is referring to a written documents which he has in his hands.
Eugene De Kock: Yeah, well I do it for the sake of completion. I don't want to jump around. I've put it all in sequence so as to benefit yourself and to save time.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: And a copy has been handed over to us to us, so...
Eugene De Kock: It's been handed over to ... if you want an original, you're also welcome and then I'll keep a copy, so I have no problem with that and then you have it in handwriting as well and I'm quite prepared to do that. "Ik se nou" (I am saying now).
FHL Hans Ölvebro: You were starting to talk about an American connection.
Eugene De Kock: Oh yeah. Philip Powell made it very clear that there was ... that there was American connection, a very strong American connection, between the International Freedom Foundation as well as the Longreach company, and that there was a definite or implied, or definitely implied CIA link. There is no doubt about it.
Philip Powell enjoyed a lot of trust in this company where he operated in. I'll give you another example later, is that he had to fly to Pakistan and pick up two or three of the chief Mujahedin, you know, of those leaders and had to fly them in to Jambal, which was UNITA headquarters in
- - 4 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Angola, and at the same time, and I believe it was a Ronald Reagan era, at the same time they flew in the Contras and all the other right-wing groups in South America, who were going against the Sandinistas and the Honduras or whatever happened there, you know.
There were so many little wars going on there and there was definitely a very very strong American connection concerning that.
Okay, Philip Powell also mentioned to me, and this is just to give you a background example of the openness that existed between us.
He and two or three other ... well, people or operatives in this front company that he worked for now live in England.
And he also told me that on the Thames or one of those rivers in the central of London, I think it's a ... well it's a Thames going through it in any case, there was a bust of Nelson Mandela, which was fabricated by some polymer or plastic so it couldn't rust.
And they destroyed this by throwing flammable, you know liquids over it and then setting in alight.
And they were actually ... and they were actually ... they were actually, well, not arrested but they were caught out.
He never said who it was, whether it was Special Branch, MI5 or MI6 or whatever.
I don't think it will be MI6 in any case. So they were operating, they were busy and they were in ... let me put it to you: they were in a destruction mode, let me put it to you that way.
Okay, I've already...I've already read that ... front organisation I've already mentioned.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Maybe you can say exactly what Mister Philip Powell told you about the murder of ...
Eugene De Kock: What he said was that: "This man is a man who shot Olof Palme." And that is it.
He didn't give detail about how the man walked up, or if he did walk up or in he was on a bike or if he was in a car or whatever.
I've made a list of about four or five pieces of information that we gained from Tommy Lindström,(Pomn) so that you will know what he gave us and this is about on six or seven, so that we do not confuse what I say with what he said.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay.
Eugene De Kock: Philip Powell was adamant that this man was a killer. There is no doubt about it.
And that this man was working for Craig Williamson, that Craig Williamson was the chief of operations concerning the killing of Olof Palme. There is no doubt about that.
If I had any doubt, I would have not mentioned it, you know, in court.
As soon as the shooting of Olof Palme, all fingers pointed towards
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn) Tommy Lindström
HB17676=>HBE17676 mfl. (Inga dokument uppladdade /2024-10-26)
- - 4 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Angola, and at the same time, and I believe it was a Ronald Reagan era, at the same time they flew in the Contras and all the other right-wing groups in South America, who were going against the Sandinistas and the Honduras or whatever happened there, you know.
There were so many little wars going on there and there was definitely a very very strong American connection concerning that.
Okay, Philip Powell also mentioned to me, and this is just to give you a background example of the openness that existed between us.
He and two or three other ... well, people or operatives in this front company that he worked for now live in England.
And he also told me that on the Thames or one of those rivers in the central of London, I think it's a ... well it's a Thames going through it in any case, there was a bust of Nelson Mandela, which was fabricated by some polymer or plastic so it couldn't rust.
And they destroyed this by throwing flammable, you know liquids over it and then setting in alight.
And they were actually ... and they were actually ... they were actually, well, not arrested but they were caught out.
He never said who it was, whether it was Special Branch, MI5 or MI6 or whatever.
I don't think it will be MI6 in any case. So they were operating, they were busy and they were in ... let me put it to you: they were in a destruction mode, let me put it to you that way.
Okay, I've already...I've already read that ... front organisation I've already mentioned.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Maybe you can say exactly what Mister Philip Powell told you about the murder of ...
Eugene De Kock: What he said was that: "This man is a man who shot Olof Palme." And that is it.
He didn't give detail about how the man walked up, or if he did walk up or in he was on a bike or if he was in a car or whatever.
I've made a list of about four or five pieces of information that we gained from Tommy Lindström,(Pomn) so that you will know what he gave us and this is about on six or seven, so that we do not confuse what I say with what he said.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay.
Eugene De Kock: Philip Powell was adamant that this man was a killer. There is no doubt about it.
And that this man was working for Craig Williamson, that Craig Williamson was the chief of operations concerning the killing of Olof Palme. There is no doubt about that.
If I had any doubt, I would have not mentioned it, you know, in court.
As soon as the shooting of Olof Palme, all fingers pointed towards
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn) Tommy Lindström
HB17676=>HBE17676 mfl. (Inga dokument uppladdade /2024-10-26)
- - 5 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Craig Williamson and his group.
We, in the CCB, the Civil Cooperation Bureau, and my own unit, as well as other units in the army the reconnaisance command, we had ... there was interaction between us, so we usually knew who did which operation.
We would not be able to name the operators, but we know, or we knew which operators was involved in it, so that we do not cross lines and kill each other's sources or, you know, manage to maybe upset an operation which is already in progress.
And then you also had in form of like fingerprinting, you know. You could, by the execution of the type of operation, you knew who it was.
After a certain incident where we bombed a God's house. I mean we never, you know told anybody about it. Now the next morning there was a fax, a congratulations on God's house.
And then I asked one of the CCB chaps:
- "Well how can you say it's us?"
So he said:
- "Well if it's not us, then it must be you."
You know, it was one of those types of things. There is ... there was a method that was identifiable, there's no doubt about that. Anything more direct about Philip Powell?
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Yes please. Where did you talk to Mister Philip Powell?
Eugene De Kock: It was in the base camp that was adjoining the game reserve. "Wat is daai?" (What is that?)
It was adjoining the Umfolosi game reserve. There is a base camp that was adjoining the fence of it. And we sat the night there and we ... and we ... in general you know we talked and then he gave me this information, all by himself, it wasn't forced out of him.
I was actually surprised by his openness. I did not ask for this information. It came in all the conversations. This was before we had an argument about his way of doing things, you know, when we start the training.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you remember the name of the camp, if it had one?
Eugene De Kock: No, and there is not a day that I did not kick myself for not keeping it, or keeping it back. I do not know how to explain it to you the, well, not the remorse, but the stupidity of not keeping it. I had the name and I had an address.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: And can you connect it with another event, so you can maybe ...?
- - 5 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Craig Williamson and his group.
We, in the CCB, the Civil Cooperation Bureau, and my own unit, as well as other units in the army the reconnaisance command, we had ... there was interaction between us, so we usually knew who did which operation.
We would not be able to name the operators, but we know, or we knew which operators was involved in it, so that we do not cross lines and kill each other's sources or, you know, manage to maybe upset an operation which is already in progress.
And then you also had in form of like fingerprinting, you know. You could, by the execution of the type of operation, you knew who it was.
After a certain incident where we bombed a God's house. I mean we never, you know told anybody about it. Now the next morning there was a fax, a congratulations on God's house.
And then I asked one of the CCB chaps:
- "Well how can you say it's us?"
So he said:
- "Well if it's not us, then it must be you."
You know, it was one of those types of things. There is ... there was a method that was identifiable, there's no doubt about that. Anything more direct about Philip Powell?
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Yes please. Where did you talk to Mister Philip Powell?
Eugene De Kock: It was in the base camp that was adjoining the game reserve. "Wat is daai?" (What is that?)
It was adjoining the Umfolosi game reserve. There is a base camp that was adjoining the fence of it. And we sat the night there and we ... and we ... in general you know we talked and then he gave me this information, all by himself, it wasn't forced out of him.
I was actually surprised by his openness. I did not ask for this information. It came in all the conversations. This was before we had an argument about his way of doing things, you know, when we start the training.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you remember the name of the camp, if it had one?
Eugene De Kock: No, and there is not a day that I did not kick myself for not keeping it, or keeping it back. I do not know how to explain it to you the, well, not the remorse, but the stupidity of not keeping it. I had the name and I had an address.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: And can you connect it with another event, so you can maybe ...?
- - 6 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Well, I can maybe connect Craig Williamson to another event which happened. There's another name here which I will give to you, which can give you another lead.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: I mean when you talked to Mister Philip Powell, if you can ...
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: We're still in the camp?
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Still in the camp.
Eugene De Kock: No, there is no ... there is no other ... there is no other incident that I can attach to it, which can give me additional, a sort of projection of what happened there.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Where were you sitting?
Eugene De Kock: We were sitting just outside. There was a long bungalow, built of stone, and I think it had a thatched roof if I'm not mistaken, and we were just sitting outside there. That was where we slept and they also made the food there.
There's a little round bungalow. On the opposite of this long bungalow there's also a sort of a shower and a toilet facility and that is where we sat.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Anything else in the surroundings that you could remember?
Eugene De Kock: Well, there was a lot of singing of the young blacks that was due to be trained, but you know nothing that would have impaired my hearing, let me put it to you that way, or there was no liquor.
I do not use liquor 24 hours before I either start training or I go into operations, and he does not drink at all. So it's not a matter that, because he's a total, you know, absentee: he doesn't use, you know, well he uses no alcohol at all.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Was it a long or a short conversation you had?
Eugene De Kock: It was a general conversation, you know. It sort of flowed. He was, you know, talking about this.
I, if I'm not mistaken I was referring to some of our operations in Swaziland, and because what I was trying to do was to compare the international standards of operations, you know.
I actually wanted to see if: will we also be able to operate in Europe? should that order
- - 6 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: Well, I can maybe connect Craig Williamson to another event which happened. There's another name here which I will give to you, which can give you another lead.
FHL Hans Ölvebro: I mean when you talked to Mister Philip Powell, if you can ...
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: We're still in the camp?
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Still in the camp.
Eugene De Kock: No, there is no ... there is no other ... there is no other incident that I can attach to it, which can give me additional, a sort of projection of what happened there.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Where were you sitting?
Eugene De Kock: We were sitting just outside. There was a long bungalow, built of stone, and I think it had a thatched roof if I'm not mistaken, and we were just sitting outside there. That was where we slept and they also made the food there.
There's a little round bungalow. On the opposite of this long bungalow there's also a sort of a shower and a toilet facility and that is where we sat.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Anything else in the surroundings that you could remember?
Eugene De Kock: Well, there was a lot of singing of the young blacks that was due to be trained, but you know nothing that would have impaired my hearing, let me put it to you that way, or there was no liquor.
I do not use liquor 24 hours before I either start training or I go into operations, and he does not drink at all. So it's not a matter that, because he's a total, you know, absentee: he doesn't use, you know, well he uses no alcohol at all.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Was it a long or a short conversation you had?
Eugene De Kock: It was a general conversation, you know. It sort of flowed. He was, you know, talking about this.
I, if I'm not mistaken I was referring to some of our operations in Swaziland, and because what I was trying to do was to compare the international standards of operations, you know.
I actually wanted to see if: will we also be able to operate in Europe? should that order
- - 7 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: come, and I had no doubt that we could, except for certain countries. You would have to be, you know, more careful and then in certain countries i would not operate at all.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: When you talked to Mister Philip Powell ...
Eugene De Kock: Yeah.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: ... did you talk to him about this matter for an hour or twenty minutes or several hours? When did you start and when did you stop?
Eugene De Kock: It came in general conversation and it lasted about five minutes, six minutes.
It was more ... it was more a reference and then a discussion of a reference. I personally think what he did here was to give me his CV.
He was not known to me as an operator. He was not operational in bush warfare. He was non operational here in the neighbouring states in contact situations where they had to shoot and kill people.
He was not involved inside or in the neighbouring states in bombing any places. So he had no operational background, something which I, to answer, was a bit sceptical about. because he was giving orders.
Okay, here's his operation, it's his baby, the training of the Self-Defence Unit, but then when I make certain recommendations and he shoots them down, then I would like to know why.
And I think he was giving me a basic CV of his own background, his own knowledge, to inspire more trust in me. That is the idea I got.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Okay, I'll ask you again: Can you remember for how long this conversation lasted? Did you talk to him for five minutes, twenty minutes, several hours?
Eugene De Kock: ... look the whole of the conversation could have ... the general conversation could have been up to half an hour, three quarters of an hour.
That is if my recollection serves me correct.
Concerning the Olof Palme thing, which was in passing, because it didn't basically interest me, let me put it to you that way. I had no compassion for Sweden at that time...
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Was anyone else ...?
- - 7 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: come, and I had no doubt that we could, except for certain countries. You would have to be, you know, more careful and then in certain countries i would not operate at all.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: When you talked to Mister Philip Powell ...
Eugene De Kock: Yeah.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: ... did you talk to him about this matter for an hour or twenty minutes or several hours? When did you start and when did you stop?
Eugene De Kock: It came in general conversation and it lasted about five minutes, six minutes.
It was more ... it was more a reference and then a discussion of a reference. I personally think what he did here was to give me his CV.
He was not known to me as an operator. He was not operational in bush warfare. He was non operational here in the neighbouring states in contact situations where they had to shoot and kill people.
He was not involved inside or in the neighbouring states in bombing any places. So he had no operational background, something which I, to answer, was a bit sceptical about. because he was giving orders.
Okay, here's his operation, it's his baby, the training of the Self-Defence Unit, but then when I make certain recommendations and he shoots them down, then I would like to know why.
And I think he was giving me a basic CV of his own background, his own knowledge, to inspire more trust in me. That is the idea I got.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Okay, I'll ask you again: Can you remember for how long this conversation lasted? Did you talk to him for five minutes, twenty minutes, several hours?
Eugene De Kock: ... look the whole of the conversation could have ... the general conversation could have been up to half an hour, three quarters of an hour.
That is if my recollection serves me correct.
Concerning the Olof Palme thing, which was in passing, because it didn't basically interest me, let me put it to you that way. I had no compassion for Sweden at that time...
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Was anyone else ...?
- - 8 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: ... because of their stance, you know, against, you know, South African government, so let's make no mistake about that. And ... but it did interest me from the point of view is that here was confirmation of the Craig Williamson side.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Was anyone else present?
Eugene De Kock: No, it was only the two of us.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Has anyone else seen the two of you together at this time?
Eugene De Kock I suppose there could have been a lot of the Blacks that saw us together, but whether we'll be able to identify them or not, there's eight, nine I note of those.
And even if they did see us, we used to talk or walk away and then talk about the training, the type of training we will give, and that we kept amongst ourselves.
We sometimes made certain, you know, revelations about Buthulezi which he gave to me on a personal basis: his health, his fear of witch doctors and things like that, which will be generally interested or now all of interest to the general public. But this was a personai conversation.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: As you may know, Mister Philip Powell has denied that a conversation like this has taken place.
Eugene De Kock: Yes. I've seen that in the newspapers.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Well, let's say that he has just ... it has slipped out of his mind. Is there anything special that could remind him of this conversation? Something that happened ...
Eugene De Kock: Well I think that will ... something that will remind him very strongly of who it could be and the name, because he gave it to me when I asked him, you know, who this man was. Then he gave the name, you know, in this conversation.
And then he offered, he actually, without me asking me for, he gave me the address and the telephone number and say:
- "If you are overseas or you go to Turkey, contact the man."
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Was he aware of this name in his mind or had he in a notebook?
- - 8 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: ... because of their stance, you know, against, you know, South African government, so let's make no mistake about that. And ... but it did interest me from the point of view is that here was confirmation of the Craig Williamson side.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Was anyone else present?
Eugene De Kock: No, it was only the two of us.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Has anyone else seen the two of you together at this time?
Eugene De Kock I suppose there could have been a lot of the Blacks that saw us together, but whether we'll be able to identify them or not, there's eight, nine I note of those.
And even if they did see us, we used to talk or walk away and then talk about the training, the type of training we will give, and that we kept amongst ourselves.
We sometimes made certain, you know, revelations about Buthulezi which he gave to me on a personal basis: his health, his fear of witch doctors and things like that, which will be generally interested or now all of interest to the general public. But this was a personai conversation.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: As you may know, Mister Philip Powell has denied that a conversation like this has taken place.
Eugene De Kock: Yes. I've seen that in the newspapers.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Well, let's say that he has just ... it has slipped out of his mind. Is there anything special that could remind him of this conversation? Something that happened ...
Eugene De Kock: Well I think that will ... something that will remind him very strongly of who it could be and the name, because he gave it to me when I asked him, you know, who this man was. Then he gave the name, you know, in this conversation.
And then he offered, he actually, without me asking me for, he gave me the address and the telephone number and say:
- "If you are overseas or you go to Turkey, contact the man."
FHL Hans Ölvebro: Was he aware of this name in his mind or had he in a notebook?
- - 9 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: No, it is like I know the Brigadier. It's like ... it's like ... it's not that he's going to scratch around and look for names.
It is like he'll say:
- "Well, let's go and have a beer."
You know, it is ... it is ... it's with ease. It's knowledge.
To come back to your previous question, I wanted to answer that ... oh, I think what will activate his memory very much is that he's sitting waiting to be charged! for receiving arms and possession of arms etcetera etcetera.
And my personal opinion is that he's keeping it back to either trade with or to use it as a bargaining position. I have no doubt about it.
For instance last year on various occasions I phoned him and then if you look at my cell phone at that account, I mean I phoned him in Cape Town on his cell phone, I mean, I phone him in parliament, where he was sitting asking what was going on.
So do we add there was this openness amongst us.
And I asked him on various occasions if he could give me the name again and he said, well he can't do it now.
Then I phoned him about two or three months ago and I said:
- "Listen. did you get me the name?"
And he said:
- "Listen, I don't know, I can't remember the name, but the people who know everything of the whole operation is a Mister John T. Leontsinis(x) and his wife, Cindy, which runs a nursery in Johannesburg."
They worked for Craig Williamson before, when they were in the police and they were also running front companies, so they also worked for Craig Williamson when he left the police. They also worked for him then in a military intelligence side of it.
I have no doubt that Philip Powell will have a very strong recollection about everything, the day when he's charged.
I can also not see how he's going to get off and be not guilty.
I mean it's, you know, sixty tons of ammunition you don't just hide away.
So I have no doubt that he's keeping it back as a bargaining chip, that is my opinion.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Did he mention anything more about this person than his name and address? For instance: age, family situation?
Eugene De Kock: No, he did not. No he did not. If he did, you will find it in the notes also.
I've made as comprehensive these notes as possible, except now for where he sat and for how long we talked and, you know.
But he mentioned ... there was no mentioning, you know, about family.
Usually when we talk, and in my own unit we never mentioned family, children or whatever. I mean it was only men's talk.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: I'm not quite sure that I understood. Did Philip Powell mention how he had this knowledge himself?
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn: John T. Leontsinis
HBJ17837 (Förhör 1996-10-18 med Craig Williamson)
- - 9 (17) -
Eugene De Kock: No, it is like I know the Brigadier. It's like ... it's like ... it's not that he's going to scratch around and look for names.
It is like he'll say:
- "Well, let's go and have a beer."
You know, it is ... it is ... it's with ease. It's knowledge.
To come back to your previous question, I wanted to answer that ... oh, I think what will activate his memory very much is that he's sitting waiting to be charged! for receiving arms and possession of arms etcetera etcetera.
And my personal opinion is that he's keeping it back to either trade with or to use it as a bargaining position. I have no doubt about it.
For instance last year on various occasions I phoned him and then if you look at my cell phone at that account, I mean I phoned him in Cape Town on his cell phone, I mean, I phone him in parliament, where he was sitting asking what was going on.
So do we add there was this openness amongst us.
And I asked him on various occasions if he could give me the name again and he said, well he can't do it now.
Then I phoned him about two or three months ago and I said:
- "Listen. did you get me the name?"
And he said:
- "Listen, I don't know, I can't remember the name, but the people who know everything of the whole operation is a Mister John T. Leontsinis(x) and his wife, Cindy, which runs a nursery in Johannesburg."
They worked for Craig Williamson before, when they were in the police and they were also running front companies, so they also worked for Craig Williamson when he left the police. They also worked for him then in a military intelligence side of it.
I have no doubt that Philip Powell will have a very strong recollection about everything, the day when he's charged.
I can also not see how he's going to get off and be not guilty.
I mean it's, you know, sixty tons of ammunition you don't just hide away.
So I have no doubt that he's keeping it back as a bargaining chip, that is my opinion.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Did he mention anything more about this person than his name and address? For instance: age, family situation?
Eugene De Kock: No, he did not. No he did not. If he did, you will find it in the notes also.
I've made as comprehensive these notes as possible, except now for where he sat and for how long we talked and, you know.
But he mentioned ... there was no mentioning, you know, about family.
Usually when we talk, and in my own unit we never mentioned family, children or whatever. I mean it was only men's talk.
ÅKL Jan Danielsson: I'm not quite sure that I understood. Did Philip Powell mention how he had this knowledge himself?
Personer omnämnda:
Pomn: John T. Leontsinis
HBJ17837 (Förhör 1996-10-18 med Craig Williamson)
