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2008-06-04

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Förhör med Dirk Coetzee

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P omn: Almond Nofomela / F. W. de Klerk

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Förhör med Dirk Coetzee

Uppgiftslämnare

Dirk Coetzee

Uppgiftsmottagare

Hans Ölvebro, Jan Danielsson

Förhöret påbörjat

1996-10-23 10:05

Avslutat

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- 1 (26) -

This is the record of the interrogation of head of section/departmental manager DIRK Johanes Coetzee, date of birth 15 April 1945, residing at South Passburg Way (Soutpansbergweg).

He is an employee of the National Intelligence Agency in Pretoria.

The interrogation is being held on the premises of the Swedish embassy in Pretoria on Wednesday 1996-10-23 10:05.

The chief interrogator is Detective Superintendent Hans Ölvebro and Chief Prosecutor Jan Danielsson is also present.

The interrogation is being recorded on tape and is being held in English.

Dirk Coetzee has been informed that he is to be interrogated with respect to any possible information he may have concerning South African involvement in the murder of Olof Palme.

Ö = Hans Ölvebro

D = Jan Danielsson

C = Dirk Coetzee

Hans Ölvebro: Yes, Mister Coetzee, we will start with that you will give us a brief information on your own background, military and police background and what you are doing today.

Dirk Coetzee: I was born in South Africa in 1945, a small rural town: Pokwani. And then moved to Pretoria at the age of two years: my father was working in the post office, where I grew up and schooled.

My primary school and my high school career in Rietfontein, very near to the suburb Reitondale, where I'm staying now. Conservative Afrikaner community, Dutch Reformed Church.

And then started to work in the post office in 1963 after completing school for seven and a half years ... for six and a half years, as a post office investigating officer: I was first on the counters, later a post office detective.

During 1966 I volunteered to do my military training in the South African Navy. It was then nine months. I was not elected to do it, but I volunteered for it, so I went for nine months military training as a radar plotter in the

- 1 (26) -

This is the record of the interrogation of head of section/departmental manager DIRK Johanes Coetzee, date of birth 15 April 1945, residing at South Passburg Way (Soutpansbergweg).

He is an employee of the National Intelligence Agency in Pretoria.

The interrogation is being held on the premises of the Swedish embassy in Pretoria on Wednesday 1996-10-23 10:05.

The chief interrogator is Detective Superintendent Hans Ölvebro and Chief Prosecutor Jan Danielsson is also present.

The interrogation is being recorded on tape and is being held in English.

Dirk Coetzee has been informed that he is to be interrogated with respect to any possible information he may have concerning South African involvement in the murder of Olof Palme.

Ö = Hans Ölvebro

D = Jan Danielsson

C = Dirk Coetzee

Hans Ölvebro: Yes, Mister Coetzee, we will start with that you will give us a brief information on your own background, military and police background and what you are doing today.

Dirk Coetzee: I was born in South Africa in 1945, a small rural town: Pokwani. And then moved to Pretoria at the age of two years: my father was working in the post office, where I grew up and schooled.

My primary school and my high school career in Rietfontein, very near to the suburb Reitondale, where I'm staying now. Conservative Afrikaner community, Dutch Reformed Church.

And then started to work in the post office in 1963 after completing school for seven and a half years ... for six and a half years, as a post office investigating officer: I was first on the counters, later a post office detective.

During 1966 I volunteered to do my military training in the South African Navy. It was then nine months. I was not elected to do it, but I volunteered for it, so I went for nine months military training as a radar plotter in the

Redigera sida

- 10 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: about Olof ... the Olof Palme murder, and I said

"yes".

According to Riaan Stander^(x), Anthony White^(o), an ex-Rhodesian Selous Scout has murdered Olof Palme. That is what Riaan Stander says.

Who is Riaan Stander?

Riaan Stander is a former police guy who was very closely involved with Craig Williamson and still is up till this day. I don't know what Craig Williamson is pretending to say.

I believe there's rumours that he chased Riaan Stander away and all this nonsense. I was present a few months ago ... ago still when they spoke on the phone and  Craig Williamson  would say:

"Can we have coffee tomorrow?"

and Riaan Stander would say:

"Yes, what time?"

and he would mention a time on the other side

and Riaan Stander would say:

"Where? At the usual place?"

and Craig Williamson would say:

"Yes".

So very close rapport still.

When this Riaan Stander told me of Longreach, and which was section A, it had nothing to do with ... I knew them.

I knew Riaan Stander, I knew Craig Williamson, I know Peter Casselton very well. I knew very well and just like that.

I says:

"Who's...who's Olof Palme?"

And he tells me he's the Swedish Prime Minister, you should know. So when Boris Ersson asked me I told him.

And I told it as hearsay evidence and he said:

"Would you introduce me to Riaan Stander?"

I said:

"Yeah, sure."

And I contacted Riaan Stander, got Riaan's number, I don't know whether you've spoken to him, and I gave him Riaan's number and they had many bus ... this company was in Liberia and then they had Intercol and then there was GMR and there was Longreach and there was ... and for them to say that Longreach only started off in 1990 ...

I will give you the name of a lawyer who specifically investigated the Longreach story, which was first a South African company and then later liquidated but bought over and went on with it.

So what I did I introduced Boris Ersson to Riaan Stander, Riaan Stander confirmed to Boris ...to Ersson what he told me.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Which lawyer are you referring to now?

Dirk Coetzee: . There's his .. , there's his office number and his home number and his cell number.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Maybe we can take a copy of those papers.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: And the visiting cards.

Dirk Coetzee: Yes, no problem, no problem, no problem at all. And, but this is also a company that Craig Williamson operated with Riaan Stander through and ... etcetera.

But in any case okay then Boris Ersson asked Riaan Stander whether he will speak to him in

Personer omnämnda

X) Riaan Stander
HB16609 (PM Sydafrika  Riian Stander , Källa A)

O) Anthony White
HB16609 (PM Sydafrika  Riian Stander , Källa A)
HB17666=> HBE 17666 (UD-KONTAKT COMM. PRESSRAPPORT SYDAFRIKA)
HB17676=> HBE17676 (PM, )
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )
HB17681 ( BEDÖMNING AV MTRL)
HBC17741=>HB17741 (KRYPTOFAX, AMB)
D14420 (^{Referens behövs} )
Z8966 (^{Referens behövs} )

Pomn Peter Casselton
HB16609 (PM Sydafrika  Riian Stander , Källa A)
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )
HB17745=> HBM17745 ( )
HBC17741=>HB17741 (KRYPTOFAX, AMB)

Pomn
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )

- 10 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: about Olof ... the Olof Palme murder, and I said

"yes".

According to Riaan Stander^(x), Anthony White^(o), an ex-Rhodesian Selous Scout has murdered Olof Palme. That is what Riaan Stander says.

Who is Riaan Stander?

Riaan Stander is a former police guy who was very closely involved with Craig Williamson and still is up till this day. I don't know what Craig Williamson is pretending to say.

I believe there's rumours that he chased Riaan Stander away and all this nonsense. I was present a few months ago ... ago still when they spoke on the phone and  Craig Williamson  would say:

"Can we have coffee tomorrow?"

and Riaan Stander would say:

"Yes, what time?"

and he would mention a time on the other side

and Riaan Stander would say:

"Where? At the usual place?"

and Craig Williamson would say:

"Yes".

So very close rapport still.

When this Riaan Stander told me of Longreach, and which was section A, it had nothing to do with ... I knew them.

I knew Riaan Stander, I knew Craig Williamson, I know Peter Casselton very well. I knew very well and just like that.

I says:

"Who's...who's Olof Palme?"

And he tells me he's the Swedish Prime Minister, you should know. So when Boris Ersson asked me I told him.

And I told it as hearsay evidence and he said:

"Would you introduce me to Riaan Stander?"

I said:

"Yeah, sure."

And I contacted Riaan Stander, got Riaan's number, I don't know whether you've spoken to him, and I gave him Riaan's number and they had many bus ... this company was in Liberia and then they had Intercol and then there was GMR and there was Longreach and there was ... and for them to say that Longreach only started off in 1990 ...

I will give you the name of a lawyer who specifically investigated the Longreach story, which was first a South African company and then later liquidated but bought over and went on with it.

So what I did I introduced Boris Ersson to Riaan Stander, Riaan Stander confirmed to Boris ...to Ersson what he told me.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Which lawyer are you referring to now?

Dirk Coetzee: . There's his .. , there's his office number and his home number and his cell number.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Maybe we can take a copy of those papers.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: And the visiting cards.

Dirk Coetzee: Yes, no problem, no problem, no problem at all. And, but this is also a company that Craig Williamson operated with Riaan Stander through and ... etcetera.

But in any case okay then Boris Ersson asked Riaan Stander whether he will speak to him in

Personer omnämnda

X) Riaan Stander
HB16609 (PM Sydafrika  Riian Stander , Källa A)

O) Anthony White
HB16609 (PM Sydafrika  Riian Stander , Källa A)
HB17666=> HBE 17666 (UD-KONTAKT COMM. PRESSRAPPORT SYDAFRIKA)
HB17676=> HBE17676 (PM, )
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )
HB17681 ( BEDÖMNING AV MTRL)
HBC17741=>HB17741 (KRYPTOFAX, AMB)
D14420 (^{Referens behövs} )
Z8966 (^{Referens behövs} )

Pomn Peter Casselton
HB16609 (PM Sydafrika  Riian Stander , Källa A)
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )
HB17745=> HBM17745 ( )
HBC17741=>HB17741 (KRYPTOFAX, AMB)

Pomn
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )

Redigera sida

- 11 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: camera and Riaan Stander said:

"Yes."

Now what he told him on camera I don't know, but Boris Ersson was then very happy, kept on and I said:

"Listen, what my hearsay evidence I've told you. I've introduced you to the guy who told me the story. Leave me alone now."

He's a very persisting arrogant guy. I eventually had to lock my front gates and change my phone number because I unplugged my phone for a weekend.

If I plug it in Sunday night: five minutes, Boris Ersson. I don't know how. He must have ... and he just goes on:

"Hello, this is Boris speaking" as if nothing had happened.

So I eventually locked my front gates and I said:

"If you can get over that gate..."

I was a man that was ... several attempts on my life.

"Try it and I'll show you something. They'll carry you in a box back to Sweden. You don't want to listen. I told you my story. I introduced you to Riaan Stander. Don't come and tell me now what you're going to do to Riaan Stander if he doesn't want to cooperate with you."

Because apparently to him, he then spoke to  Namn maskerat  gave his full cooperation, that's what Boris Ersson said.

He then went back to Sweden and then he spoke to  Namn maskerat . He was also on TV last night.

 Namn maskerat , acting for Gene de Kock, that's Riaan Stander's lawyer. He's just opposite, he's in the Southern Life building just in the next street. In the same block. You will get him.

And spoke to  Namn maskerat  and said they would pay all costs if Riaan Stander comes over and I don't know what else.

And then eventually started phoning me again in the middle of the night, saying:

"If Riaan Stander is not going to come they're going to do this."

I says:

"Why do you tell it to me? I've no need of it."

And it's then that I changed my phone number and said:

"Listen, I've had enough of you."

Now what Riaan Stander is saying today I don't know. That I can't tell you. But what happened now with the Swedish journalists: I got them to speak to  Namn maskerat , who was the main anti-propaganda.

If you had negative propagandas against the South African police and against the South African government,  Namn maskerat  was then in section D, he's a colonel in the police.

He was the expert in countering negative propaganda towards the South African ... he'll tell it to you.

He had fifty journalists on his list ... on his ... of the police list payers ... if a student organisation to the left was started on a campus,  Namn maskerat  would start it off to the right.

So what I did I introduced him to the Swedes and so and says:

"This is what you can expect from this man. Listen to his story."

Then he listened to his story. Then I would bring him, Peter Casselton and myself, who would sit there one side and then come in and start asking questions.

Now with Wolfgang Hansson, Aftonbladet, and his cameraman one night,  Namn maskerat  was sitting there and I said:

"Vicky, why don't you stop talking nonsense to the world? Why don't you stand up for the truth? The lies are over. Those times for lies are over."

And  Namn maskerat 

Person omnämnd:
HB16609 (PM SYDAFRIKA  Riian Stander , KÄLLA A)

- 11 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: camera and Riaan Stander said:

"Yes."

Now what he told him on camera I don't know, but Boris Ersson was then very happy, kept on and I said:

"Listen, what my hearsay evidence I've told you. I've introduced you to the guy who told me the story. Leave me alone now."

He's a very persisting arrogant guy. I eventually had to lock my front gates and change my phone number because I unplugged my phone for a weekend.

If I plug it in Sunday night: five minutes, Boris Ersson. I don't know how. He must have ... and he just goes on:

"Hello, this is Boris speaking" as if nothing had happened.

So I eventually locked my front gates and I said:

"If you can get over that gate..."

I was a man that was ... several attempts on my life.

"Try it and I'll show you something. They'll carry you in a box back to Sweden. You don't want to listen. I told you my story. I introduced you to Riaan Stander. Don't come and tell me now what you're going to do to Riaan Stander if he doesn't want to cooperate with you."

Because apparently to him, he then spoke to  Namn maskerat  gave his full cooperation, that's what Boris Ersson said.

He then went back to Sweden and then he spoke to  Namn maskerat . He was also on TV last night.

 Namn maskerat , acting for Gene de Kock, that's Riaan Stander's lawyer. He's just opposite, he's in the Southern Life building just in the next street. In the same block. You will get him.

And spoke to  Namn maskerat  and said they would pay all costs if Riaan Stander comes over and I don't know what else.

And then eventually started phoning me again in the middle of the night, saying:

"If Riaan Stander is not going to come they're going to do this."

I says:

"Why do you tell it to me? I've no need of it."

And it's then that I changed my phone number and said:

"Listen, I've had enough of you."

Now what Riaan Stander is saying today I don't know. That I can't tell you. But what happened now with the Swedish journalists: I got them to speak to  Namn maskerat , who was the main anti-propaganda.

If you had negative propagandas against the South African police and against the South African government,  Namn maskerat  was then in section D, he's a colonel in the police.

He was the expert in countering negative propaganda towards the South African ... he'll tell it to you.

He had fifty journalists on his list ... on his ... of the police list payers ... if a student organisation to the left was started on a campus,  Namn maskerat  would start it off to the right.

So what I did I introduced him to the Swedes and so and says:

"This is what you can expect from this man. Listen to his story."

Then he listened to his story. Then I would bring him, Peter Casselton and myself, who would sit there one side and then come in and start asking questions.

Now with Wolfgang Hansson, Aftonbladet, and his cameraman one night,  Namn maskerat  was sitting there and I said:

"Vicky, why don't you stop talking nonsense to the world? Why don't you stand up for the truth? The lies are over. Those times for lies are over."

And  Namn maskerat 

Person omnämnd:
HB16609 (PM SYDAFRIKA  Riian Stander , KÄLLA A)

Redigera sida

- 12 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: will then just smile stupidly. I don't know whether you've seen Monday night's programme on
. Have you seen Monday night's documentary?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yes.

Dirk Coetzee: And then I said to  Namn maskerat 

"Tell them about Philip Powell and what was your official ranking in Section D with the anti-propaganda?"

And then  Namn maskerat  will tell them. He told Walker. And then he said ... and I said:

"Philip Powell? Philip Powell was a lieutenant with me. Philip Powell is now the IFP senator. Senator I. F. Powell, with whom Craig ... Gene de Kock worked very closely.

And then Craig Williamson stole him for Longreach. Says "oh".

I says:

"What do you do..."

in front of the journalists and in front of Peter Casselton

"...what do you do if Philip Powell decides the day to spill the beans?"

His answer was:

"He won't."

Normally you would ask:

"The beans on what? Spill the beans on what?"

His answer was:

"He won't."

I said to him:

' according to information which I've picked up from the Swedish journalists, some say Craig Williamson was in an apartment, some say he was in a caravan park, three weeks before the Olof Palme murder. He and another two persons. I don't know if it was men or women."

So I talk about Sweden. I don't know Europe, I don't.

 Namn maskerat  in front of this journalist says:

"Stockholm, in IPA house, on the night of the murder."

He says:

"Well, was Craig Williamson a member of IPA?" because at that time he was supposed to be with Military Intelligence, underground.

But on the surface he was put in the President's Council and standing for the National Party in Bryanston, but that was just a front.

He said:

"In IPA house the night of the murder, not with being ... notwithstanding the fact that he was not a member of IPA..." and he gave a stupid laugh.

I said:

"You're talking about 'they'. Who were the other two people?"

And  Namn maskerat  started stuttering and backtracking. Okay. Then when left, he pulled his chair back. Peter Casselton was sitting there. He took two steps back and then he looked back to Peter Casselton and he says:

"Peter Casselton. don't say too much."

And Peter Casselton laughed. He says:

"That's an admission, your answer."

And when Peter Casselton spoke where I heard the first time about Bertil Wedin ... Wedin, is when a Swedish journalist, I think it was also Aftonbladet, Magdelena, who brought me a picture of Bertil Wedin and told me he worked with Peter Casselton in London and whether I ... in London during the early 1980's when Peter Casselton was involved with the bombing of the offices and breaking into the ANC offices in London.

I said:

"I don't know this guy. Never seen him ..."

I just want to show you which photo they showed me. " ... and I don't know

Personer omnämnda:

HB17676=> HBE17676 (PM, )
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )

HBB4111 (Gunnar Wedin lämnar tips om Bertil Wedin.)

- 12 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: will then just smile stupidly. I don't know whether you've seen Monday night's programme on
. Have you seen Monday night's documentary?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yes.

Dirk Coetzee: And then I said to  Namn maskerat 

"Tell them about Philip Powell and what was your official ranking in Section D with the anti-propaganda?"

And then  Namn maskerat  will tell them. He told Walker. And then he said ... and I said:

"Philip Powell? Philip Powell was a lieutenant with me. Philip Powell is now the IFP senator. Senator I. F. Powell, with whom Craig ... Gene de Kock worked very closely.

And then Craig Williamson stole him for Longreach. Says "oh".

I says:

"What do you do..."

in front of the journalists and in front of Peter Casselton

"...what do you do if Philip Powell decides the day to spill the beans?"

His answer was:

"He won't."

Normally you would ask:

"The beans on what? Spill the beans on what?"

His answer was:

"He won't."

I said to him:

' according to information which I've picked up from the Swedish journalists, some say Craig Williamson was in an apartment, some say he was in a caravan park, three weeks before the Olof Palme murder. He and another two persons. I don't know if it was men or women."

So I talk about Sweden. I don't know Europe, I don't.

 Namn maskerat  in front of this journalist says:

"Stockholm, in IPA house, on the night of the murder."

He says:

"Well, was Craig Williamson a member of IPA?" because at that time he was supposed to be with Military Intelligence, underground.

But on the surface he was put in the President's Council and standing for the National Party in Bryanston, but that was just a front.

He said:

"In IPA house the night of the murder, not with being ... notwithstanding the fact that he was not a member of IPA..." and he gave a stupid laugh.

I said:

"You're talking about 'they'. Who were the other two people?"

And  Namn maskerat  started stuttering and backtracking. Okay. Then when left, he pulled his chair back. Peter Casselton was sitting there. He took two steps back and then he looked back to Peter Casselton and he says:

"Peter Casselton. don't say too much."

And Peter Casselton laughed. He says:

"That's an admission, your answer."

And when Peter Casselton spoke where I heard the first time about Bertil Wedin ... Wedin, is when a Swedish journalist, I think it was also Aftonbladet, Magdelena, who brought me a picture of Bertil Wedin and told me he worked with Peter Casselton in London and whether I ... in London during the early 1980's when Peter Casselton was involved with the bombing of the offices and breaking into the ANC offices in London.

I said:

"I don't know this guy. Never seen him ..."

I just want to show you which photo they showed me. " ... and I don't know

Personer omnämnda:

HB17676=> HBE17676 (PM, )
HB17684=> HBM17684 (^{Referens behövs} )

HBB4111 (Gunnar Wedin lämnar tips om Bertil Wedin.)

Redigera sida

- 13 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: this guy at all. And then Peter Casselton phoned me that night. Then Peter Casselton phoned me that night.

I said:

"Peter Casselton, here was this Swedish journalist and tells the story about Bertil Wedin arrested with you and never being charged with ..."

He said:

"Yes yes, he worked for me and Craig Williamson."

Now Peter Casselton was the London agent who handled Craig's London operations, and amongst others, Bertil Wedin.

And the night with the ... and Peter Casselton, now I don't sit and ... Peter Casselton is a friend of mine, big friend of mine. His motor car at the moment is in my garage.

He's at the moment with my son in Mozambique to fix an aeroplane to fly back. They will be back ... on Sunday they will be gone for two weeks, they'll be back very soon.

Now I don't interrogate Peter Casselton, like I did not with Riaan Stander.

Why do you say it's Anthony White? I don't know Anthony White. I've never seen Anthony White in my life, except on TV the other night when they had pictures of him. Bertil Wedin I didn't even know about.

Peter Casselton never spoke about him until I asked him:

"The Swedish guys are here asking about him."

Then the night when Vicky McPhearson and myself, that was Friday a week ago, last Friday, now the Friday a week ago in the Waterfalls Restaurant here in Nedbank Plaza in Pretoria on the corner of Church and Beatrix Street. Peter... Vicky said to the Swedish journalist:

"It's not Bertil Wedin."

So Peter Casselton asked him:

"I hope you're not betting on it because you will lose your money."

So the Swedish journalist asked Peter Casselton:

"Are you betting on it?"

Peter Casselton says:

"For sure."

Now Peter's...and Peter Casselton asked  Namn maskerat 

"How is he going to get past his bank account?"

They must just draw this guy's bank account. And look into it: how is he going to explain all that money and all that ... I don't know what they are? That was the question.

I didn't say:

"What do you mean about bank accounts?"

But I was present when it was said. And I'm sure Peter Casselton will repeat it to you. He's got no hang-ups about it.

So that is what I know about Bertil Wedin. Again, I don't know the person at all.

Now just to ... if ... if ... if just interest's sake, I just want to sort of quote to you the relationship between Craig Williamson and myself, just in short, because I know for you it's all hearsay evidence.

But in 1989, on skimpy hearsay evidence, I told the world about .

What did Craig Williamson tell you, and it was this 'have you seen...?' and I knew it was you, you bastard, that is what was said.

Now in my departmental trial when I was trying to put a different meaning to a similar conversation, 'I didn't mean that and I didn't mean that', Craig Williamson is on record, just interest's sake, just a good one, just to say ... if I can get my hands on it. Sorry, I won't keep you long...

Hans Ölvebro: Well, I think we can turn over the tape.

- 13 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: this guy at all. And then Peter Casselton phoned me that night. Then Peter Casselton phoned me that night.

I said:

"Peter Casselton, here was this Swedish journalist and tells the story about Bertil Wedin arrested with you and never being charged with ..."

He said:

"Yes yes, he worked for me and Craig Williamson."

Now Peter Casselton was the London agent who handled Craig's London operations, and amongst others, Bertil Wedin.

And the night with the ... and Peter Casselton, now I don't sit and ... Peter Casselton is a friend of mine, big friend of mine. His motor car at the moment is in my garage.

He's at the moment with my son in Mozambique to fix an aeroplane to fly back. They will be back ... on Sunday they will be gone for two weeks, they'll be back very soon.

Now I don't interrogate Peter Casselton, like I did not with Riaan Stander.

Why do you say it's Anthony White? I don't know Anthony White. I've never seen Anthony White in my life, except on TV the other night when they had pictures of him. Bertil Wedin I didn't even know about.

Peter Casselton never spoke about him until I asked him:

"The Swedish guys are here asking about him."

Then the night when Vicky McPhearson and myself, that was Friday a week ago, last Friday, now the Friday a week ago in the Waterfalls Restaurant here in Nedbank Plaza in Pretoria on the corner of Church and Beatrix Street. Peter... Vicky said to the Swedish journalist:

"It's not Bertil Wedin."

So Peter Casselton asked him:

"I hope you're not betting on it because you will lose your money."

So the Swedish journalist asked Peter Casselton:

"Are you betting on it?"

Peter Casselton says:

"For sure."

Now Peter's...and Peter Casselton asked  Namn maskerat 

"How is he going to get past his bank account?"

They must just draw this guy's bank account. And look into it: how is he going to explain all that money and all that ... I don't know what they are? That was the question.

I didn't say:

"What do you mean about bank accounts?"

But I was present when it was said. And I'm sure Peter Casselton will repeat it to you. He's got no hang-ups about it.

So that is what I know about Bertil Wedin. Again, I don't know the person at all.

Now just to ... if ... if ... if just interest's sake, I just want to sort of quote to you the relationship between Craig Williamson and myself, just in short, because I know for you it's all hearsay evidence.

But in 1989, on skimpy hearsay evidence, I told the world about .

What did Craig Williamson tell you, and it was this 'have you seen...?' and I knew it was you, you bastard, that is what was said.

Now in my departmental trial when I was trying to put a different meaning to a similar conversation, 'I didn't mean that and I didn't mean that', Craig Williamson is on record, just interest's sake, just a good one, just to say ... if I can get my hands on it. Sorry, I won't keep you long...

Hans Ölvebro: Well, I think we can turn over the tape.

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- 14 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Okay, because I've got it here. I've got it.

Hans Ölvebro: Okay, here we go.

Dirk Coetzee: Right, now it's still the quote. Now it's on page 22 of my manuscript, where Craig Williamson ... and I quote him, how's he explaining now, because I know hearsay evidence is a problem in normal life, in judicial terms, but in our world, not.

He says:

"It is a very devious way of talking. It is something that security people will understand."

And then he goes on and says:

"I think for people in the profession, people who speak deviously to each other and who have a very intimate rapport with each other understand intimately, understand very well what is going on in this type of conversation."

Craig Williamson, at my internal trial, on ten June 1985, volume six, page 292 and 293.

Now that is just to show you what is my relationship ... from Craig Williamson, how he explains to a presiding officer, the good relationship we had; how he explains to a presiding officer this way of talking, which is very difficult to bring into line with the judicial rules and judicial system. That's about my story.

Hans Ölvebro: Well, I would say it was not a brief information, it was...

Dirk Coetzee: Comprehensive?

Hans Ölvebro: Yes.

Dirk Coetzee: I'm always comprehensive. Speak too much.

Hans Ölvebro: But still I have some questions.

Dirk Coetzee: Yes, for sure.

Hans Ölvebro: Have you ever been in Sweden?

Dirk Coetzee: Never in my life.

Hans Ölvebro: Do you know any Swede? I mean down here or otherwise in the ... overseas or something?

Dirk Coetzee: No. I know ... well apart from the journalists that I've met now in the past three weeks ...

- 14 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Okay, because I've got it here. I've got it.

Hans Ölvebro: Okay, here we go.

Dirk Coetzee: Right, now it's still the quote. Now it's on page 22 of my manuscript, where Craig Williamson ... and I quote him, how's he explaining now, because I know hearsay evidence is a problem in normal life, in judicial terms, but in our world, not.

He says:

"It is a very devious way of talking. It is something that security people will understand."

And then he goes on and says:

"I think for people in the profession, people who speak deviously to each other and who have a very intimate rapport with each other understand intimately, understand very well what is going on in this type of conversation."

Craig Williamson, at my internal trial, on ten June 1985, volume six, page 292 and 293.

Now that is just to show you what is my relationship ... from Craig Williamson, how he explains to a presiding officer, the good relationship we had; how he explains to a presiding officer this way of talking, which is very difficult to bring into line with the judicial rules and judicial system. That's about my story.

Hans Ölvebro: Well, I would say it was not a brief information, it was...

Dirk Coetzee: Comprehensive?

Hans Ölvebro: Yes.

Dirk Coetzee: I'm always comprehensive. Speak too much.

Hans Ölvebro: But still I have some questions.

Dirk Coetzee: Yes, for sure.

Hans Ölvebro: Have you ever been in Sweden?

Dirk Coetzee: Never in my life.

Hans Ölvebro: Do you know any Swede? I mean down here or otherwise in the ... overseas or something?

Dirk Coetzee: No. I know ... well apart from the journalists that I've met now in the past three weeks ...

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- 15 (26) -

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Of course, yes.

Dirk Coetzee: I know Danish guys only:  Namn maskerat  and  Namn maskerat ^(x), that was involved with Craig Williamson in Operation Daisy, at the days when he was infiltrated with the International University Education Fund or such. But no Swedes at all, no.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Never met Swedish policemen?

Dirk Coetzee: Never.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Have you heard about Swedish policemen been down here in South Africa for training or something like that?

Dirk Coetzee: I've heard in ... I read in the newspapers that Sweden is supporting the South African police and is sending people for instruction to educate our police in more ...

FL Hans Ölvebro: Nowadays, yes, but I mean back in the eighties or something like that.

Dirk Coetzee: Nothing. Nothing at all.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: There ... some people in Sweden say that there have been Swedish policemen down here in South Africa for training.

Dirk Coetzee: Well I won't know about it, because it wasn't my department. My department was Section C, Vlakplaas and security office, so if they were here, it depends whether they were here secretly or openly and it depends on which section of the police: if it was Operation Daisy it would have been in secrecy at Daisy Farm, if it was ... I don't know, but I don't know. I haven't got first-hand knowledge of it.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: No, okay. Do you have any questions?

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Yes please. As I understood you, Riaan Stander said to you that Anthony White had actually shot Olof Palme.

Dirk Coetzee: That's right

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- 15 (26) -

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Of course, yes.

Dirk Coetzee: I know Danish guys only:  Namn maskerat  and  Namn maskerat ^(x), that was involved with Craig Williamson in Operation Daisy, at the days when he was infiltrated with the International University Education Fund or such. But no Swedes at all, no.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Never met Swedish policemen?

Dirk Coetzee: Never.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Have you heard about Swedish policemen been down here in South Africa for training or something like that?

Dirk Coetzee: I've heard in ... I read in the newspapers that Sweden is supporting the South African police and is sending people for instruction to educate our police in more ...

FL Hans Ölvebro: Nowadays, yes, but I mean back in the eighties or something like that.

Dirk Coetzee: Nothing. Nothing at all.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: There ... some people in Sweden say that there have been Swedish policemen down here in South Africa for training.

Dirk Coetzee: Well I won't know about it, because it wasn't my department. My department was Section C, Vlakplaas and security office, so if they were here, it depends whether they were here secretly or openly and it depends on which section of the police: if it was Operation Daisy it would have been in secrecy at Daisy Farm, if it was ... I don't know, but I don't know. I haven't got first-hand knowledge of it.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: No, okay. Do you have any questions?

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Yes please. As I understood you, Riaan Stander said to you that Anthony White had actually shot Olof Palme.

Dirk Coetzee: That's right

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- 16 (26) -

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: When was that?

Dirk Coetzee: Eighteen months to twenty-four months ago. I think one will have to get it in Boris Ersson's passport. the exact date, that he flew into the country.

He stayed for about a week or two and then he left. So if you can get hold of Boris Ersson.

It was before I joined NIA in February 1995, so it should have been either in the beginning or towards the end of 1994.

He was here alone, no as cameraman alone with no sound man, nothing.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you remember where you were when Riaan Stander told you that?

Dirk Coetzee: I meet Riaan Stander very frequently. He comes to my house for rye. What I did do, I did introduce Riaan Stander to the Attorney-General's office  Namn maskerat  and Advokate  Namn maskerat . The exact conversation about that .. I think it went more about Boiphatong, but I don't know whether the Swedish connection was mentioned.

I immediately, after the Boris Ersson's interest, mentioned it to  Namn maskerat  and I said:

"Why don't we go and make a story of it?"

He just nodded it away. I think he must have had too many stuff on his brains. But where exactly would be very difficult because you will see Riaan Stander visits and phones me frequently. We go out drinking frequently. We go out eating frequently.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you remember if anyone else was present?

Dirk Coetzee: My son might have been on occasion or two. We'll have to ask him, I don't know.

I can't ... all I know is he repeated it to Boris Ersson in front of me off the camera. Very clear.

Now they then prepared another meeting where he spoke to Boris Ersson ... he said he spoke to Boris Ersson on camera. I don't know whether it's true. But Boris Ersson would be able to answer that.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: What did he actually say? Did he just say that Anthony White pulled the trigger or...?

Dirk Coetzee: Craig Williamson was involved. It was a Craig Williamson operation and Ant White killed him. Which [[Peter Casselton] of course denies.

Pete says it's not Ant, it's Bertil Wedin or whatever. He first said it's a guy staying in Turkey. And then when I said the Swedish journalist was here and I showed him the photo he implicated that it's Bertil Wedin.

Now, and of course I explained it

- 16 (26) -

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: When was that?

Dirk Coetzee: Eighteen months to twenty-four months ago. I think one will have to get it in Boris Ersson's passport. the exact date, that he flew into the country.

He stayed for about a week or two and then he left. So if you can get hold of Boris Ersson.

It was before I joined NIA in February 1995, so it should have been either in the beginning or towards the end of 1994.

He was here alone, no as cameraman alone with no sound man, nothing.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you remember where you were when Riaan Stander told you that?

Dirk Coetzee: I meet Riaan Stander very frequently. He comes to my house for rye. What I did do, I did introduce Riaan Stander to the Attorney-General's office  Namn maskerat  and Advokate  Namn maskerat . The exact conversation about that .. I think it went more about Boiphatong, but I don't know whether the Swedish connection was mentioned.

I immediately, after the Boris Ersson's interest, mentioned it to  Namn maskerat  and I said:

"Why don't we go and make a story of it?"

He just nodded it away. I think he must have had too many stuff on his brains. But where exactly would be very difficult because you will see Riaan Stander visits and phones me frequently. We go out drinking frequently. We go out eating frequently.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you remember if anyone else was present?

Dirk Coetzee: My son might have been on occasion or two. We'll have to ask him, I don't know.

I can't ... all I know is he repeated it to Boris Ersson in front of me off the camera. Very clear.

Now they then prepared another meeting where he spoke to Boris Ersson ... he said he spoke to Boris Ersson on camera. I don't know whether it's true. But Boris Ersson would be able to answer that.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: What did he actually say? Did he just say that Anthony White pulled the trigger or...?

Dirk Coetzee: Craig Williamson was involved. It was a Craig Williamson operation and Ant White killed him. Which [[Peter Casselton] of course denies.

Pete says it's not Ant, it's Bertil Wedin or whatever. He first said it's a guy staying in Turkey. And then when I said the Swedish journalist was here and I showed him the photo he implicated that it's Bertil Wedin.

Now, and of course I explained it

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- 17 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: in the way that when Riaan Stander ... Riaan Stander sat, I don't know whether it's of interest for you, but he sat in my sitting room.

Now that was about three weeks ago when he spoke to ... I've got his card at home:  Namn maskerat  of Channel Four Television.

 Namn maskerat  phoned the morning to ask Ronald Reid-Daly, a former Rhodesian's telephone number. He's near Johannesburg.

Now I don't know those guys, they were Section A guys, they operated more with Craig Williamson.

Then I said:

"I haven't got it, but Riaan Stander is here, I'll just ask him whether he'll speak to you."

And I said:

"Riaan Stander, do you know anything about Ronald Reid-Daly, will you speak to the Swedish journalist?"

He says.

"Yes." And he took the phone.

Then I could hear, after helping him with the phone number, this journalist was trying to press him to come forward with the information.

So Riaan Stander ... and my son was in the sitting room with me.

That's not to say it's my son, that's why I talk like my father. You can see him apart completely. He's twenty years old. He's open-minded and he won't lie with his father, 'cos I don't lie.

But what he then said is:

"It's not as plain..." it was now Riaan Stander talking to this man "... it's not as plain as a simple murder. It's a whole run-up to the story. It might even involve individual Swedish politician and security forces, security force members. So it's not only the ..."

and he asked about the reward and the guy said:

"Fifty million Kronor"

and Riaan Stander said:

"That's about thirty million Rand."

Riaan Stander flies frequently over to Germany, some weeks...he's got a, well he says 'a office there' but I don't know. It's a friend:  Namn maskerat  I think. But he's frequently over to Germany.

But he then said

"So one will have to look at a safe house."

He doesn't say

"I know it",

he says:

"If one has information, one will have to look at a safe house and Swedish citizenship."

That's what he said and this journalist asked to phone him back, because Riaan Stander said:

"I'll! think about it."

But he also said:

"Well it's not as plain as a simple murder. Oh, there's a whole run-up to it."

And let me just think what he else said. But what happened then when later ... I'm sorry this is another thing, mate: your state television guy phoned then who also did an interview.

A guy with very little hair. He came here with a South African camera team: Simon and I think James was the sound man with the South Africans. He was alone.

When I told him, because when this journalist started, as soon as they had their scoop, I filled them in on what other journalists have found out and what they say, just to make sure everyone gets all information.

When I told this state journalist guy, he said Riaan told him that too. Oh yes, that's one.

And in the end he said:

"You know, even the weapon might be found."

What did he mean by that? I, my conclusion, coming from the security family is: Riaan Stander might have some knowledge where that weapon is. Why would he say

- 17 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: in the way that when Riaan Stander ... Riaan Stander sat, I don't know whether it's of interest for you, but he sat in my sitting room.

Now that was about three weeks ago when he spoke to ... I've got his card at home:  Namn maskerat  of Channel Four Television.

 Namn maskerat  phoned the morning to ask Ronald Reid-Daly, a former Rhodesian's telephone number. He's near Johannesburg.

Now I don't know those guys, they were Section A guys, they operated more with Craig Williamson.

Then I said:

"I haven't got it, but Riaan Stander is here, I'll just ask him whether he'll speak to you."

And I said:

"Riaan Stander, do you know anything about Ronald Reid-Daly, will you speak to the Swedish journalist?"

He says.

"Yes." And he took the phone.

Then I could hear, after helping him with the phone number, this journalist was trying to press him to come forward with the information.

So Riaan Stander ... and my son was in the sitting room with me.

That's not to say it's my son, that's why I talk like my father. You can see him apart completely. He's twenty years old. He's open-minded and he won't lie with his father, 'cos I don't lie.

But what he then said is:

"It's not as plain..." it was now Riaan Stander talking to this man "... it's not as plain as a simple murder. It's a whole run-up to the story. It might even involve individual Swedish politician and security forces, security force members. So it's not only the ..."

and he asked about the reward and the guy said:

"Fifty million Kronor"

and Riaan Stander said:

"That's about thirty million Rand."

Riaan Stander flies frequently over to Germany, some weeks...he's got a, well he says 'a office there' but I don't know. It's a friend:  Namn maskerat  I think. But he's frequently over to Germany.

But he then said

"So one will have to look at a safe house."

He doesn't say

"I know it",

he says:

"If one has information, one will have to look at a safe house and Swedish citizenship."

That's what he said and this journalist asked to phone him back, because Riaan Stander said:

"I'll! think about it."

But he also said:

"Well it's not as plain as a simple murder. Oh, there's a whole run-up to it."

And let me just think what he else said. But what happened then when later ... I'm sorry this is another thing, mate: your state television guy phoned then who also did an interview.

A guy with very little hair. He came here with a South African camera team: Simon and I think James was the sound man with the South Africans. He was alone.

When I told him, because when this journalist started, as soon as they had their scoop, I filled them in on what other journalists have found out and what they say, just to make sure everyone gets all information.

When I told this state journalist guy, he said Riaan told him that too. Oh yes, that's one.

And in the end he said:

"You know, even the weapon might be found."

What did he mean by that? I, my conclusion, coming from the security family is: Riaan Stander might have some knowledge where that weapon is. Why would he say

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- 18 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: that?

And he said the same to the other guy when I was not even present, but when I repeated it to the Swedish national television or the ... I don't know what his name was in any case, but he will know about it.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: When Riaan Stander mentioned Anthony White's name, as the murderer, did he say how he had that knowledge? How had he come to that conclusion?

Dirk Coetzee: The impression he gave was as a result of his being part of Craig Williamson's team in Longreach.

He also says that he was for a long time based on the Greek islands, Riaan Stander. That's what he says.

Whether it's true or not I don't know, but it's because of his involvement.

The run up to the ... I'm just mentioning it because it's in my head now ... the 79,000 Rand expense account was mentioned to me by Peter Casselton, who said ...

He visits Gene de Kock very frequently, every Sunday.

And he said, Gene de Kock, says the man with the information is Philip Powell and that the cost, the expenses to the run-up for the murder was 79,000 Rand.

That's what Peter Casselton told me.

But Riaan Stander didn't go ... didn't elaborate on that, apart from ... now if you meet Riaan Stander, I know if you look at him in TV and you know sort of cut off all the edges he comes over strong, but he knows a lot, he knows a very lot.

But one must be able, there might be a ten per cent, fifteen per cent rubble that you have to sort from the facts, fiction from fact, but he knows an immense lot.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: But at this point he didn't refer to any other person, he just made the statement flatly.

Dirk Coetzee:: That's correct.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: And you didn't ask him anything?

Dirk Coetzee: No, no. Ask Peter Casselton with Bertil Wedin. I mean I just sat in on the conversation. It just doesn't work that way.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you yourself know Anthony White? Have you met with him or...?

Dirk Coetzee: Never in my life.

The first time I've heard his name was when Riaan Stander mentioned it.

The first time I saw a picture I mean was when it was on our news about three weeks ago on a Sunday night.

But Peter Casselton knows him very well and Peter Casselton says he went to the Swedish embassy to go and tell them it's not Ant White.

Before him and my son left Sunday two

- 18 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: that?

And he said the same to the other guy when I was not even present, but when I repeated it to the Swedish national television or the ... I don't know what his name was in any case, but he will know about it.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: When Riaan Stander mentioned Anthony White's name, as the murderer, did he say how he had that knowledge? How had he come to that conclusion?

Dirk Coetzee: The impression he gave was as a result of his being part of Craig Williamson's team in Longreach.

He also says that he was for a long time based on the Greek islands, Riaan Stander. That's what he says.

Whether it's true or not I don't know, but it's because of his involvement.

The run up to the ... I'm just mentioning it because it's in my head now ... the 79,000 Rand expense account was mentioned to me by Peter Casselton, who said ...

He visits Gene de Kock very frequently, every Sunday.

And he said, Gene de Kock, says the man with the information is Philip Powell and that the cost, the expenses to the run-up for the murder was 79,000 Rand.

That's what Peter Casselton told me.

But Riaan Stander didn't go ... didn't elaborate on that, apart from ... now if you meet Riaan Stander, I know if you look at him in TV and you know sort of cut off all the edges he comes over strong, but he knows a lot, he knows a very lot.

But one must be able, there might be a ten per cent, fifteen per cent rubble that you have to sort from the facts, fiction from fact, but he knows an immense lot.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: But at this point he didn't refer to any other person, he just made the statement flatly.

Dirk Coetzee:: That's correct.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: And you didn't ask him anything?

Dirk Coetzee: No, no. Ask Peter Casselton with Bertil Wedin. I mean I just sat in on the conversation. It just doesn't work that way.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you yourself know Anthony White? Have you met with him or...?

Dirk Coetzee: Never in my life.

The first time I've heard his name was when Riaan Stander mentioned it.

The first time I saw a picture I mean was when it was on our news about three weeks ago on a Sunday night.

But Peter Casselton knows him very well and Peter Casselton says he went to the Swedish embassy to go and tell them it's not Ant White.

Before him and my son left Sunday two

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- 19 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: weeks ago to Beira to fix a plane. There are three broken planes:
someone in Jo'burg fix one out of the two out of the three and fly it back.

And so he will for sure have visited Ant White now. Riaan Stander knows him very well.

Riaan Stander says he lives about three streets from the airport in a double-storey house with his wife and his daughter.

Riaan Stander knows him very well, that I can say, but I've never met him. Oh, and
described him to the Swedish journalist as a top assassin of the Selous Scouts in the old Rhodesian bush war.

Riaan Stander ... described to the Swedish journalist how he twice, Anthony White, whilst working for military intelligence, went down to Lesotho to assassinate  Namn maskerat  the head of the Lesotho state.

The first time the car bomb which he triggered, there was a five-second delay for some reason or what that they don't know and the convoy has already passed when the car-bomb went off.

Then on his second trip down to Lesotho, he had the  Namn maskerat  would have addressed a crowd and the rails on the front of the podium, they had exact replicas made and had that stuffed with explosives and Ant White was on his way down when the South African police got hold of him in a road block and phoned the security police and Colonel  Namn maskerat  of Section C, and was closely involved with Craig Williamson in later years, he resigned from the police now in February round about.

He was with me in Section C as a captain in 1981. And  Namn maskerat  was one of the guys who interrogated him.

And then  Namn maskerat  says they gave him only a 2,000 Rand fine for illegal possession of explosives and an AK47 and then released him because then they realised oh shit he's one of the security clique.

And just to ... just in short to fill you in: in 1981 it was quite easy to draw a line between police intelligence and military intelligence. We didn't work together.

Until  Namn maskerat  came to power there was a forced marriage kind of: we had to exchange information.

If you take the CCB.

What was the C? Civil Cooperation Bureau, which was a military intelligence branch.

You look at the people in that branch: Staal Burger, an ex-colonel in the police, Ferdie Barnard, who was on TV last night, a sergeant in the police,  Namn maskerat , policeman, S Namn maskerat  etcetera.

So a lot of policemen now with military intelligence.

Craig Williamson resigning, Johann Coetzee making a big issue of it in the local newspapers:

"He's now leaving, we lose a great man, but luckily his knowledge will still be available in the President's Council."

But in the meantime he left the police to eye-blind the world and the liberation movements and then went in with military intelligence. Riaan Stander, former policeman, with Craig Williamson in Longreach, left ... Philip Powell

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- 19 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: weeks ago to Beira to fix a plane. There are three broken planes:
someone in Jo'burg fix one out of the two out of the three and fly it back.

And so he will for sure have visited Ant White now. Riaan Stander knows him very well.

Riaan Stander says he lives about three streets from the airport in a double-storey house with his wife and his daughter.

Riaan Stander knows him very well, that I can say, but I've never met him. Oh, and
described him to the Swedish journalist as a top assassin of the Selous Scouts in the old Rhodesian bush war.

Riaan Stander ... described to the Swedish journalist how he twice, Anthony White, whilst working for military intelligence, went down to Lesotho to assassinate  Namn maskerat  the head of the Lesotho state.

The first time the car bomb which he triggered, there was a five-second delay for some reason or what that they don't know and the convoy has already passed when the car-bomb went off.

Then on his second trip down to Lesotho, he had the  Namn maskerat  would have addressed a crowd and the rails on the front of the podium, they had exact replicas made and had that stuffed with explosives and Ant White was on his way down when the South African police got hold of him in a road block and phoned the security police and Colonel  Namn maskerat  of Section C, and was closely involved with Craig Williamson in later years, he resigned from the police now in February round about.

He was with me in Section C as a captain in 1981. And  Namn maskerat  was one of the guys who interrogated him.

And then  Namn maskerat  says they gave him only a 2,000 Rand fine for illegal possession of explosives and an AK47 and then released him because then they realised oh shit he's one of the security clique.

And just to ... just in short to fill you in: in 1981 it was quite easy to draw a line between police intelligence and military intelligence. We didn't work together.

Until  Namn maskerat  came to power there was a forced marriage kind of: we had to exchange information.

If you take the CCB.

What was the C? Civil Cooperation Bureau, which was a military intelligence branch.

You look at the people in that branch: Staal Burger, an ex-colonel in the police, Ferdie Barnard, who was on TV last night, a sergeant in the police,  Namn maskerat , policeman, S Namn maskerat  etcetera.

So a lot of policemen now with military intelligence.

Craig Williamson resigning, Johann Coetzee making a big issue of it in the local newspapers:

"He's now leaving, we lose a great man, but luckily his knowledge will still be available in the President's Council."

But in the meantime he left the police to eye-blind the world and the liberation movements and then went in with military intelligence. Riaan Stander, former policeman, with Craig Williamson in Longreach, left ... Philip Powell

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- 2 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: South African Navy.

I continued my career with the post office until 1970-03-31, when I asked for a transfer to the police.

On 1970-04-01 I joined the police as a student constable.

I was then ... did my training in the police college from July to December 1970 and at the end of the year was elected the best student of the academy, the best student of the year.

I went back to the police station where I did all facets of police station work: all that you can get at on police station - accidents on the streets, complaints from the public, running the charge office, police dockets, petty investigations like assault etcetera and then I went for a police dog-handlers course.

I did the dog-handlers course and then transferred to flying squad: emergency police on the street if there's emergency calls.

I also did my counterintelligence ... counter insurgency anti-terrorist training with a dog and I went to Rhodesia in January 1973 for three months on the border with my dog.

I came back and then transferred to Venda in the northern Transvaal as second in charge of the station commander there, where I became ... wrote my officer's exams and then became an officer in the police force and I was drawn to the police academy to lecture in law to the students.

That was still June 1976, when I was transferred to Volksrus police station. it's in the south-eastern Transvaal near Natal border as station commander.

There the police brigadier those days who was chief of the security police, he sent a local security police chief, a secure ... area security brigadier and the local Ermelo branch commander, figuring all in this present case, to come and draw me for the security branch.

I transferred then to Oshoek border post, where I was border post commander, mainly concerning passport control, but all border posts in South Africa fall under the security police of the region.

I then started operating for them, for the security police into Swaziland.

If they wanted keys of hotel rooms, if they wanted keys of ANC cadres or embassies that's hostile towards the South African government, supporting the ANC, coming from Mozambique to service their vehicles in Swaziland, I had duplicate keys made at the garage where they serviced their cars, where I had a contact, and we stole those vehicles.

I was also ordered to break into the ANC ... to the United Nation High Commission refugee offices in Swaziland, which I did, and stole all the documents and whatever there was.

I was also involved then at ... no later and with that I worked closely with the Ermelo security branch on operations, but still doing my brinkmanship, my apprenticeship as I call it in the security culture.

I then was transferred to Middelburg security, police branch as second in charge, in January 1980 and stayed there until August 1980.

I, at this stage, I think in April, took over the

- 2 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: South African Navy.

I continued my career with the post office until 1970-03-31, when I asked for a transfer to the police.

On 1970-04-01 I joined the police as a student constable.

I was then ... did my training in the police college from July to December 1970 and at the end of the year was elected the best student of the academy, the best student of the year.

I went back to the police station where I did all facets of police station work: all that you can get at on police station - accidents on the streets, complaints from the public, running the charge office, police dockets, petty investigations like assault etcetera and then I went for a police dog-handlers course.

I did the dog-handlers course and then transferred to flying squad: emergency police on the street if there's emergency calls.

I also did my counterintelligence ... counter insurgency anti-terrorist training with a dog and I went to Rhodesia in January 1973 for three months on the border with my dog.

I came back and then transferred to Venda in the northern Transvaal as second in charge of the station commander there, where I became ... wrote my officer's exams and then became an officer in the police force and I was drawn to the police academy to lecture in law to the students.

That was still June 1976, when I was transferred to Volksrus police station. it's in the south-eastern Transvaal near Natal border as station commander.

There the police brigadier those days who was chief of the security police, he sent a local security police chief, a secure ... area security brigadier and the local Ermelo branch commander, figuring all in this present case, to come and draw me for the security branch.

I transferred then to Oshoek border post, where I was border post commander, mainly concerning passport control, but all border posts in South Africa fall under the security police of the region.

I then started operating for them, for the security police into Swaziland.

If they wanted keys of hotel rooms, if they wanted keys of ANC cadres or embassies that's hostile towards the South African government, supporting the ANC, coming from Mozambique to service their vehicles in Swaziland, I had duplicate keys made at the garage where they serviced their cars, where I had a contact, and we stole those vehicles.

I was also ordered to break into the ANC ... to the United Nation High Commission refugee offices in Swaziland, which I did, and stole all the documents and whatever there was.

I was also involved then at ... no later and with that I worked closely with the Ermelo security branch on operations, but still doing my brinkmanship, my apprenticeship as I call it in the security culture.

I then was transferred to Middelburg security, police branch as second in charge, in January 1980 and stayed there until August 1980.

I, at this stage, I think in April, took over the

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- 20 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: with , Lieutenant Philip Powell, went to Longreach with Craig Williamson, so the police and the certain sections of military intelligence became closely involved and entangled.

You look at  Namn maskerat , the guy who also spoke last night, he was the guy who flew to London with Captain Pamela Durandt to arrange a contract murder with the Ulster Loyalists on my life.

On the eleventh of April 1992 they landed in London and they were arrested by Scotland Yard on the fourteenth of April.

He is an ex-Vlakplaas policeman, you can see Sergeant  Namn maskerat , but at the time was with Military Intelligence, Directorate of Covert Collection: DCC.

So they became so closely entangled and involved that it was difficult then to distinguish.

I mean they went to Vlakplaas whenever they wanted, to Daisy, and it was one concoction, one big concoction. Sorry for all the long ... let's get back to your questions.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Well we have some names, we ... You have already mentioned a lot of people but we have some other names we will ask you about.

When Craig Williamson left the police and went on to the military side his controller was a person called  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee:  Tolletjie Botha  actually yeah. I don't know him I've heard the name a lot. Riaan Stander will be ... have you seen Riaan Stander already or not? I don't know but if you see Riaan Stander he's got a lot on that  Tolletjie Botha . But I've never met him. I've just heard the name again from Riaan Stander.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you know his real name?

Dirk Coetzee: No, it's a nickname.  Namn maskerat  is a nickname like, yeah like what? No I don't know his real name. But every ... if you speak of  Tolletjie Botha , everyone will know in the intelligence world.

Everyone will know.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Will he be here in Pretoria?

Dirk Coetzee: Yeah yeah he will. Easy findable, Tolletjie Botha. I'm sure if you ring Riaan Stander...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Well we have tried for several days but he don't...

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: He doesn't call back.

- 20 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: with , Lieutenant Philip Powell, went to Longreach with Craig Williamson, so the police and the certain sections of military intelligence became closely involved and entangled.

You look at  Namn maskerat , the guy who also spoke last night, he was the guy who flew to London with Captain Pamela Durandt to arrange a contract murder with the Ulster Loyalists on my life.

On the eleventh of April 1992 they landed in London and they were arrested by Scotland Yard on the fourteenth of April.

He is an ex-Vlakplaas policeman, you can see Sergeant  Namn maskerat , but at the time was with Military Intelligence, Directorate of Covert Collection: DCC.

So they became so closely entangled and involved that it was difficult then to distinguish.

I mean they went to Vlakplaas whenever they wanted, to Daisy, and it was one concoction, one big concoction. Sorry for all the long ... let's get back to your questions.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Well we have some names, we ... You have already mentioned a lot of people but we have some other names we will ask you about.

When Craig Williamson left the police and went on to the military side his controller was a person called  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee:  Tolletjie Botha  actually yeah. I don't know him I've heard the name a lot. Riaan Stander will be ... have you seen Riaan Stander already or not? I don't know but if you see Riaan Stander he's got a lot on that  Tolletjie Botha . But I've never met him. I've just heard the name again from Riaan Stander.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Do you know his real name?

Dirk Coetzee: No, it's a nickname.  Namn maskerat  is a nickname like, yeah like what? No I don't know his real name. But every ... if you speak of  Tolletjie Botha , everyone will know in the intelligence world.

Everyone will know.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Will he be here in Pretoria?

Dirk Coetzee: Yeah yeah he will. Easy findable, Tolletjie Botha. I'm sure if you ring Riaan Stander...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Well we have tried for several days but he don't...

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: He doesn't call back.

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- 21 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Is it? I wonder why. Running away from the truth again. I can try now if you want to. You can give me a phone to find out.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: But maybe after the ...

Dirk Coetzee: After the interview, okay.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: After we stop the tape recorder we can talk about telephone numbers.

Dirk Coetzee: And Peter Casselton too. You can ... Peter Casselton is quite open and loose and he will ... he knows where all this Ant White and Ronald Reid-Daly and all this ex-Rhodesian lot. That was more their section.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: There's a name:  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee: . He was called . He was on Section A3 with Craig Williamson in 1981 as a captain, a young captain.

They now ... him and  Namn maskerat , the one Danish guy that was with Craig Williamson in Daisy Operation has through Craig's cooperation bought the Quay or is running the Quay Four restaurant in Cape Town on the waterfront. His real name is  Namn maskerat  but we call him Jack.

Now  Namn maskerat  left Jack and I met ... I flew down on a flight to Cape Town in November last year, when Craig Williamson and two Angolan, black Angolan guys, skinny guys were on the plane and Mark Asmusen met them at the airport.

And they walked straight up to Craig Williamson, but he was so nervous.

But I said:

"Can't we have a beer together, Craig?"

He said:

"Oh I'm actually in a hurry, I must fly back but ( very open. A nice man."

But they never contacted me. But then Mark Asmusen said he's out of Quay Four now, he's now with Craig Williamson with diamonds in Angola.

But Quay Four is a military front. They also had the restaurant - if you sit at Quay Four in Cape Town looking to the water and you look to your left, there's another restaurant which belonged to them. The Quila, something Tequila, Mexican Tequila or something, which Louis has sold, or they have sold or given or whatever to the former Minister of Police  Namn maskerat s two sons: they are running Tequila.

But for sure a front, for sure a thing that was started with Craig Williamson and with money from taxpayers. He was poor. He visited Peter Casselton still whilst Peter Casselton was in London, Peter Casselton, he visited and he had no money. He was a poor police rat like I am: no money.

And Peter Casselton treated him there, Peter Casselton will tell you the story, but that's to help you.

- 21 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Is it? I wonder why. Running away from the truth again. I can try now if you want to. You can give me a phone to find out.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: But maybe after the ...

Dirk Coetzee: After the interview, okay.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: After we stop the tape recorder we can talk about telephone numbers.

Dirk Coetzee: And Peter Casselton too. You can ... Peter Casselton is quite open and loose and he will ... he knows where all this Ant White and Ronald Reid-Daly and all this ex-Rhodesian lot. That was more their section.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: There's a name:  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee: . He was called . He was on Section A3 with Craig Williamson in 1981 as a captain, a young captain.

They now ... him and  Namn maskerat , the one Danish guy that was with Craig Williamson in Daisy Operation has through Craig's cooperation bought the Quay or is running the Quay Four restaurant in Cape Town on the waterfront. His real name is  Namn maskerat  but we call him Jack.

Now  Namn maskerat  left Jack and I met ... I flew down on a flight to Cape Town in November last year, when Craig Williamson and two Angolan, black Angolan guys, skinny guys were on the plane and Mark Asmusen met them at the airport.

And they walked straight up to Craig Williamson, but he was so nervous.

But I said:

"Can't we have a beer together, Craig?"

He said:

"Oh I'm actually in a hurry, I must fly back but ( very open. A nice man."

But they never contacted me. But then Mark Asmusen said he's out of Quay Four now, he's now with Craig Williamson with diamonds in Angola.

But Quay Four is a military front. They also had the restaurant - if you sit at Quay Four in Cape Town looking to the water and you look to your left, there's another restaurant which belonged to them. The Quila, something Tequila, Mexican Tequila or something, which Louis has sold, or they have sold or given or whatever to the former Minister of Police  Namn maskerat s two sons: they are running Tequila.

But for sure a front, for sure a thing that was started with Craig Williamson and with money from taxpayers. He was poor. He visited Peter Casselton still whilst Peter Casselton was in London, Peter Casselton, he visited and he had no money. He was a poor police rat like I am: no money.

And Peter Casselton treated him there, Peter Casselton will tell you the story, but that's to help you.

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- 22 (26) -

FHL Hans Ölvebro: There's a .

Dirk Coetzee: Who?

FHL Hans Ölvebro:

Dirk Coetzee:

FHL Hans Ölvebro: . Well, if you don't know him ...

Dirk Coetzee: Yeah no no no no sorry I thought maybe you pronounced the surname, but the surname...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: He's called

Dirk Coetzee:

FHL Hans Ölvebro: But his name is But he's called ...

Dirk Coetzee: And the surname?

FHL Hans Ölvebro:

Dirk Coetzee: Not an Afrikaans name.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: No, it's not, but he...

Dirk Coetzee: No, I don't know him.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay.

Dirk Coetzee: Who?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: It's a Danish name.

Dirk Coetzee:

FHL Hans Ölvebro: yes.

- 22 (26) -

FHL Hans Ölvebro: There's a .

Dirk Coetzee: Who?

FHL Hans Ölvebro:

Dirk Coetzee:

FHL Hans Ölvebro: . Well, if you don't know him ...

Dirk Coetzee: Yeah no no no no sorry I thought maybe you pronounced the surname, but the surname...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: He's called

Dirk Coetzee:

FHL Hans Ölvebro: But his name is But he's called ...

Dirk Coetzee: And the surname?

FHL Hans Ölvebro:

Dirk Coetzee: Not an Afrikaans name.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: No, it's not, but he...

Dirk Coetzee: No, I don't know him.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay.

Dirk Coetzee: Who?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: It's a Danish name.

Dirk Coetzee:

FHL Hans Ölvebro: yes.

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- 23 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: And the name?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: The first name is  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee: No.

FHL Hans Ölvebro:  Namn maskerat  of course you know who is, who he is.  Namn maskerat  It's a policeman in Port Elizabeth. Okay.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: You don't know him?

Dirk Coetzee: No, you see I just want to explain... Okay. Okay, let's go on.

FHL Hans Ölvebro:

Dirk Coetzee: Uh-huh.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: And I have a name:  Namn maskerat .

Dirk Coetzee:  Namn maskerat  No.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: And another one is  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee: Whoa! Ghe Ghe ! Ha ha! Ghe Ghe  Namn maskerat  my son! He was also there. He was also in the restaurant. I introduced him to the Swedish guys too.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: You did.

Dirk Coetzee: Yes. We call him Ghe Ghe. You see his initials is G, but because he's got such a common flat South African name,  Namn maskerat  we called him Ghe Ghe.

He doesn't smoke but he loves his little totsies. No he's very ... he's with a computer company, I mean he gave my son a card. I can go home and look for the card.

Otherwise the Waterfalls Restaurant is ... the owners are ... and .

Peter  Casselton  always ... I mean Peter  Casselton's  never got a job and if he's in Pretoria he sleeps at their place and so, so all ... frequently comes here, but on a Sunday after Peter  Casselton's  been at the jail, he's usually at Paul's house and comes there every Sunday.

Before they left for Beira, him and my son, .

Peter  Casselton  went to visit Gene de Kock on a Saturday to ask him a few questions

- 23 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: And the name?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: The first name is  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee: No.

FHL Hans Ölvebro:  Namn maskerat  of course you know who is, who he is.  Namn maskerat  It's a policeman in Port Elizabeth. Okay.

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: You don't know him?

Dirk Coetzee: No, you see I just want to explain... Okay. Okay, let's go on.

FHL Hans Ölvebro:

Dirk Coetzee: Uh-huh.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: And I have a name:  Namn maskerat .

Dirk Coetzee:  Namn maskerat  No.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: And another one is  Namn maskerat 

Dirk Coetzee: Whoa! Ghe Ghe ! Ha ha! Ghe Ghe  Namn maskerat  my son! He was also there. He was also in the restaurant. I introduced him to the Swedish guys too.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: You did.

Dirk Coetzee: Yes. We call him Ghe Ghe. You see his initials is G, but because he's got such a common flat South African name,  Namn maskerat  we called him Ghe Ghe.

He doesn't smoke but he loves his little totsies. No he's very ... he's with a computer company, I mean he gave my son a card. I can go home and look for the card.

Otherwise the Waterfalls Restaurant is ... the owners are ... and .

Peter  Casselton  always ... I mean Peter  Casselton's  never got a job and if he's in Pretoria he sleeps at their place and so, so all ... frequently comes here, but on a Sunday after Peter  Casselton's  been at the jail, he's usually at Paul's house and comes there every Sunday.

Before they left for Beira, him and my son, .

Peter  Casselton  went to visit Gene de Kock on a Saturday to ask him a few questions

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- 24 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: a Finnish journalist, something wanted him to ask. And that Saturday night we were in Waterfalls restaurant. Who walks in? Namn maskerat 

But Ghe Ghe was there on the Friday, but easy traceable, as soon as Peter  Casselton's  back.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: What is his background?

Dirk Coetzee: Ghe Ghe ... Ghe Ghe, they say that ... some training with the German special forces and ...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: He's a military man?

Dirk Coetzee: Well, I met him as a policeman with Craig Williamson and very good shot. As I say he doesn't smoke, but he makes a little bite.

His mother is the opera singer who lives somewhere in Europe and was married to one of the former Ministers of Police, S. in 1970's about, his Mum. But he will also know a lot.

He's ... Ghe Ghe will know a lot. He's now a fat chap ... he left the police as a colonel now this year. I have ... I can give you ... his number's at home I think. I've got it somewhere. Would ... do you ...?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yeah, but we can take it after this ... when we have closed it. Do you have any more questions?

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Well I ... well ... is there something specific that you want to add yourself? With the aim at the murderer of Olof Palme.

Dirk Coetzee: No. Apart from that I'm sure that in the end it will be proved, the South African connection and Craig Williamson's involvement, because Craig Williamson, when it suits him he lies, and when it suits him he tells the truth, as you saw on TV last night: he openly admitted it.

And they asked him:

"Why did you make Dirk Coetzeea liar on this skimpy hearsay evidence, which was facts",

and then they said:

"Well, I mean look ... listen what he said last night."

So he's a smooth talker and very close to Johann Coetzee. Very close to Johann Coetzee.

Johann Coetzee admitted to newspaper, which is a journalist, that they did steal money from this fund, but it was only 50,000 Rand and they bought Daisy Farm in a loose name they registered, but according to Peter Casselton it was nearer to 17 million Rand and it went into a private bank account overseas, Swedish ... Swiss bank account. And

- 24 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: a Finnish journalist, something wanted him to ask. And that Saturday night we were in Waterfalls restaurant. Who walks in? Namn maskerat 

But Ghe Ghe was there on the Friday, but easy traceable, as soon as Peter  Casselton's  back.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: What is his background?

Dirk Coetzee: Ghe Ghe ... Ghe Ghe, they say that ... some training with the German special forces and ...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: He's a military man?

Dirk Coetzee: Well, I met him as a policeman with Craig Williamson and very good shot. As I say he doesn't smoke, but he makes a little bite.

His mother is the opera singer who lives somewhere in Europe and was married to one of the former Ministers of Police, S. in 1970's about, his Mum. But he will also know a lot.

He's ... Ghe Ghe will know a lot. He's now a fat chap ... he left the police as a colonel now this year. I have ... I can give you ... his number's at home I think. I've got it somewhere. Would ... do you ...?

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Yeah, but we can take it after this ... when we have closed it. Do you have any more questions?

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Well I ... well ... is there something specific that you want to add yourself? With the aim at the murderer of Olof Palme.

Dirk Coetzee: No. Apart from that I'm sure that in the end it will be proved, the South African connection and Craig Williamson's involvement, because Craig Williamson, when it suits him he lies, and when it suits him he tells the truth, as you saw on TV last night: he openly admitted it.

And they asked him:

"Why did you make Dirk Coetzeea liar on this skimpy hearsay evidence, which was facts",

and then they said:

"Well, I mean look ... listen what he said last night."

So he's a smooth talker and very close to Johann Coetzee. Very close to Johann Coetzee.

Johann Coetzee admitted to newspaper, which is a journalist, that they did steal money from this fund, but it was only 50,000 Rand and they bought Daisy Farm in a loose name they registered, but according to Peter Casselton it was nearer to 17 million Rand and it went into a private bank account overseas, Swedish ... Swiss bank account. And

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- 25 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Peter Casselton will say that Johann Coetzee has got seven houses in Pretoria and Jo'burg, and you always see Johann Coetzee covering up in a very stupid way for Craig Williamson with dates and stories and exactly vice versa, always. That's about it.

So you will actually be involved, you are trying to enter a clique which is ... which can only with pressure, enough pressure and the nerves will break.

As happened: it took seven years for my stories to come out. I mean they made me a complete lunatic:

"Okay, just listen to this madman's stories!"

And today, what do they say?

And at the time when I left the country I said:

"One day..."

and in the Harms Commission too you can read, I said... No it's good because the judge said to me in the Harms Commission:

"How must I believe this crap you're talking?"

He says 'crap'. And I says:

"Now okay, Judge, one day if the truth comes out, you'll see this will be the truth. And someone will stand up in future. The truth is going to come out."

And it did come out and I can only hope that the Olof Palme sort of ghost will not be laid to rest but in the end will come out.

And I unfortunately work very close with newspapers because out of my experience as I said I believe the pen is mightier than the sword, there's no end, I mean we are bogged down in our ... all legal systems in the world with strict rules that you must abide by. And with that the truth will never come out.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: And they make also sort of security for you. I mean the journalists.

Dirk Coetzee: Yeah, yeah. You can do what I did. You can do it in two ways: either change your hair, colour your hair, grow a moustache and change your name or be open.

The best way of defence is attack, attack: keep them on their back foot, keep them on the back foot.

I mean Daisy Farm, when that was now exposed because apparently Boris Ersson went back and he never ... never blew the story to the Swedish TV. That's what the journalist says. But when the Finnish guy  Namn maskerat  saw on a Friday afternoon, two o'clock, and spoke about this; he was visibly shaking, so there's a lot of skeletons that still will have to come out about the South African part.

Not that I say 'must', it's not my decision, but the government has decided it, the Truth Commission has decided it, and that's why I go for it.

I'm not allowed to speak to the media according to the rules of the Agency, but I said:

"This fight that I've started, started long before I joined the Agency, that's why I work with the media."

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay. Well, then we have finished and the interrogation is concluded at 11:20.

After the interrogation Mr Dirk Coetzee will give us some telephone

- 25 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Peter Casselton will say that Johann Coetzee has got seven houses in Pretoria and Jo'burg, and you always see Johann Coetzee covering up in a very stupid way for Craig Williamson with dates and stories and exactly vice versa, always. That's about it.

So you will actually be involved, you are trying to enter a clique which is ... which can only with pressure, enough pressure and the nerves will break.

As happened: it took seven years for my stories to come out. I mean they made me a complete lunatic:

"Okay, just listen to this madman's stories!"

And today, what do they say?

And at the time when I left the country I said:

"One day..."

and in the Harms Commission too you can read, I said... No it's good because the judge said to me in the Harms Commission:

"How must I believe this crap you're talking?"

He says 'crap'. And I says:

"Now okay, Judge, one day if the truth comes out, you'll see this will be the truth. And someone will stand up in future. The truth is going to come out."

And it did come out and I can only hope that the Olof Palme sort of ghost will not be laid to rest but in the end will come out.

And I unfortunately work very close with newspapers because out of my experience as I said I believe the pen is mightier than the sword, there's no end, I mean we are bogged down in our ... all legal systems in the world with strict rules that you must abide by. And with that the truth will never come out.

FHL Hans Ölvebro: And they make also sort of security for you. I mean the journalists.

Dirk Coetzee: Yeah, yeah. You can do what I did. You can do it in two ways: either change your hair, colour your hair, grow a moustache and change your name or be open.

The best way of defence is attack, attack: keep them on their back foot, keep them on the back foot.

I mean Daisy Farm, when that was now exposed because apparently Boris Ersson went back and he never ... never blew the story to the Swedish TV. That's what the journalist says. But when the Finnish guy  Namn maskerat  saw on a Friday afternoon, two o'clock, and spoke about this; he was visibly shaking, so there's a lot of skeletons that still will have to come out about the South African part.

Not that I say 'must', it's not my decision, but the government has decided it, the Truth Commission has decided it, and that's why I go for it.

I'm not allowed to speak to the media according to the rules of the Agency, but I said:

"This fight that I've started, started long before I joined the Agency, that's why I work with the media."

FHL Hans Ölvebro: Okay. Well, then we have finished and the interrogation is concluded at 11:20.

After the interrogation Mr Dirk Coetzee will give us some telephone

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- 26 (26) -

FHL Hans Ölvebro: numbers of people with whom we wish to get in touch and we will also take copies of a number of documents. That's it.

Mr Dirk Coetzee has also been asked if he wishes to listen to the tape and he says that this is not necessary.

END OF INTERROGATION

(Namnteckning)

- 26 (26) -

FHL Hans Ölvebro: numbers of people with whom we wish to get in touch and we will also take copies of a number of documents. That's it.

Mr Dirk Coetzee has also been asked if he wishes to listen to the tape and he says that this is not necessary.

END OF INTERROGATION

(Namnteckning)

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- 3 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: branch as branch commander, security, Middelburg.

I then transferred to headquarters, police headquarters, to section C, which was Vlakplaas, where we based all our 'ascaris', the so-called turned ANC terrorists who decided to work for us.

And from there, in theory, we were only supposed to, on paper, to roam around bus stops and police stations and shebeens, illegal drinking places, to look whether we, our ascaris can identify infiltrator terrorists.

And then if you sort of catch them you must hand them over to the local branch. In my time there was only one incident, I think, in the whole existence of Vlakplaas maybe ten, thirteen years it existed.

On occasion I was called to perform specific duties like the murder
of ^{(Pomn 1)} an ANC lawyer who served us for a short while on Robben Island, but he was a supporter of the ANC and he acted as instructing attorney on ANC cases.

And it was ordered to murder him, with specific instructions, how to do it: not to shoot him, must make it look like a murder. I was also involved in the murdering and burning of two other activists, for instance.

being one of the guys that the army abducted from Mozambique on their first raid into Matola in February 1981, because he did not want to cooperate, so they said: "Make a plan with him", with another ANC guy on the farm which gave them a lot of trouble.

In other words it involved murders, it involved stealing cars. I can go into more detail if necessary.

Then in ... during December 1981, 31st of December I was transferred by the then police commissioner, or ... no no he was then still security police chief: Johan Coetzee, ^{(Pomn 2)} General Johan Coetzee, because of a mishap with the abduction of from Swaziland.

It was an ANC Indian guy working for the ANC in Swaziland and I was called back to Pretoria to make a progress report.

I was told to leave the ascaris there in the hands of the local Ermelo security police.

A mishappening: they abducted him, they were caught, it was a hell of a political international outcry. So they had to take him back.

But of course, like Johan Coetzee always says:

"Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan",

and I was transferred to Westrand security branch and he brought Jan Coetzee, Captain Jan Coetzee to the farm.

I couldn't go to Westrand because of my child's illness, he was a ... diabetically ill, so they transferred me to narcotics.

I was then in charge of liquor, brothels... There are two divisions in narcotics; I was heading the one.

After that I wasn't happy in that circumstances and I was transferred to police headquarters, recruiting headquarters where I was national head of all white recruits.

Well, you had a white recruit, black recruit and a re-recruiting guy that had left the police and wanted to come back.

I was in charge of white recruiting.

Personer omnämnda:

Pomn 1)
HB10658 (Se HBO10658)

Pomn 2) General Johann Coetzee
HB16609 (
HB17684 (Se HBM17684)

- 3 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: branch as branch commander, security, Middelburg.

I then transferred to headquarters, police headquarters, to section C, which was Vlakplaas, where we based all our 'ascaris', the so-called turned ANC terrorists who decided to work for us.

And from there, in theory, we were only supposed to, on paper, to roam around bus stops and police stations and shebeens, illegal drinking places, to look whether we, our ascaris can identify infiltrator terrorists.

And then if you sort of catch them you must hand them over to the local branch. In my time there was only one incident, I think, in the whole existence of Vlakplaas maybe ten, thirteen years it existed.

On occasion I was called to perform specific duties like the murder
of ^{(Pomn 1)} an ANC lawyer who served us for a short while on Robben Island, but he was a supporter of the ANC and he acted as instructing attorney on ANC cases.

And it was ordered to murder him, with specific instructions, how to do it: not to shoot him, must make it look like a murder. I was also involved in the murdering and burning of two other activists, for instance.

being one of the guys that the army abducted from Mozambique on their first raid into Matola in February 1981, because he did not want to cooperate, so they said: "Make a plan with him", with another ANC guy on the farm which gave them a lot of trouble.

In other words it involved murders, it involved stealing cars. I can go into more detail if necessary.

Then in ... during December 1981, 31st of December I was transferred by the then police commissioner, or ... no no he was then still security police chief: Johan Coetzee, ^{(Pomn 2)} General Johan Coetzee, because of a mishap with the abduction of from Swaziland.

It was an ANC Indian guy working for the ANC in Swaziland and I was called back to Pretoria to make a progress report.

I was told to leave the ascaris there in the hands of the local Ermelo security police.

A mishappening: they abducted him, they were caught, it was a hell of a political international outcry. So they had to take him back.

But of course, like Johan Coetzee always says:

"Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan",

and I was transferred to Westrand security branch and he brought Jan Coetzee, Captain Jan Coetzee to the farm.

I couldn't go to Westrand because of my child's illness, he was a ... diabetically ill, so they transferred me to narcotics.

I was then in charge of liquor, brothels... There are two divisions in narcotics; I was heading the one.

After that I wasn't happy in that circumstances and I was transferred to police headquarters, recruiting headquarters where I was national head of all white recruits.

Well, you had a white recruit, black recruit and a re-recruiting guy that had left the police and wanted to come back.

I was in charge of white recruiting.

Personer omnämnda:

Pomn 1)
HB10658 (Se HBO10658)

Pomn 2) General Johann Coetzee
HB16609 (
HB17684 (Se HBM17684)

Redigera sida

- 4 (26) -

Jan Danielsson: Where are we now in the chronology?

Dirk Coetzee: We are now; sorry...I left Vlakplaas 1981-12-31.

I was in narcotics in 1982 from January till August.

I then went to recruiting headquarters in August 1982.

I stayed there till about July 1983, when I was transferred to staff officer of the regional commissioner in ... they call it Northern Transvaal, but it's a Pretoria area.

The real Northern Transvaal they called 'Far North' that's at Pietersburg, but Northern Transvaal.

So I was the staff officer. He had four: there was a colonel above me and a major and I was a captain at this stage.

So we're now in July 1984. No, it was a little bit earlier, maybe March, because during July 1984 I couldn't sort of cope with the work at the office and I wanted to go outside, working as a policeman again, and I was then transferred to radio squad cars, 'Radio Control as they call it, duty officer.

In other words handling ... in charge of all police vehicles on the air during that time.

At that stage I came into conflict with ... and that was now ... I'm talking towards the second half of 1984 ... in conflict with a security police chief, he might have been Commissioner of Police then, General Johan Coetzee and Coetzee ... then Minister of Police Louis le Grange, on illegal phone-tapping, which was now proved beyond all doubt it was right, it was true.

Of course, as a result of that I ended up on the receiving end of being charged on seven accounts 'behaving in a manner unbecoming to my rank'.

We call it 'the barbed-wire section' in the police force: if you're smoking in uniform, if your shoes are dirty, your hair is long, you know you can fix up a policeman in whatever way you want.

I had already then decided in October 1984 to put in a medical unfit, just leave the police, I mean I couldn't take it any more. I put in a medical unfit because I became sugar diabetic, like my child insulin-dependent in February 1981.

So I decided 'I've had enough, I will go'. My medical discharge was stopped on the fourth of December 1984, when the Commissioner of Police summons me to come and see him.

And I said:

"You know what it's all about. It's about you doing illegal phone-tapping. I know it, so I don't think we have anything to say to one another. I'm on sick leave, and if you want to see me, you can come and see me at home."

So he suspended me: suspended me 1984-12-04. For four months nothing happened. They didn't advise me why I was suspended, nothing.

So then I started with a court interdict in March 1995, to force the police...

Hans Ölvebro: 1985.

- 4 (26) -

Jan Danielsson: Where are we now in the chronology?

Dirk Coetzee: We are now; sorry...I left Vlakplaas 1981-12-31.

I was in narcotics in 1982 from January till August.

I then went to recruiting headquarters in August 1982.

I stayed there till about July 1983, when I was transferred to staff officer of the regional commissioner in ... they call it Northern Transvaal, but it's a Pretoria area.

The real Northern Transvaal they called 'Far North' that's at Pietersburg, but Northern Transvaal.

So I was the staff officer. He had four: there was a colonel above me and a major and I was a captain at this stage.

So we're now in July 1984. No, it was a little bit earlier, maybe March, because during July 1984 I couldn't sort of cope with the work at the office and I wanted to go outside, working as a policeman again, and I was then transferred to radio squad cars, 'Radio Control as they call it, duty officer.

In other words handling ... in charge of all police vehicles on the air during that time.

At that stage I came into conflict with ... and that was now ... I'm talking towards the second half of 1984 ... in conflict with a security police chief, he might have been Commissioner of Police then, General Johan Coetzee and Coetzee ... then Minister of Police Louis le Grange, on illegal phone-tapping, which was now proved beyond all doubt it was right, it was true.

Of course, as a result of that I ended up on the receiving end of being charged on seven accounts 'behaving in a manner unbecoming to my rank'.

We call it 'the barbed-wire section' in the police force: if you're smoking in uniform, if your shoes are dirty, your hair is long, you know you can fix up a policeman in whatever way you want.

I had already then decided in October 1984 to put in a medical unfit, just leave the police, I mean I couldn't take it any more. I put in a medical unfit because I became sugar diabetic, like my child insulin-dependent in February 1981.

So I decided 'I've had enough, I will go'. My medical discharge was stopped on the fourth of December 1984, when the Commissioner of Police summons me to come and see him.

And I said:

"You know what it's all about. It's about you doing illegal phone-tapping. I know it, so I don't think we have anything to say to one another. I'm on sick leave, and if you want to see me, you can come and see me at home."

So he suspended me: suspended me 1984-12-04. For four months nothing happened. They didn't advise me why I was suspended, nothing.

So then I started with a court interdict in March 1995, to force the police...

Hans Ölvebro: 1985.

Redigera sida

- 5 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: ... 1985, yeah. They suspended me 1984. 1985 ... to get reinstated into the police force.

And then they quickly reacted and served me, because they had my phone on tap, which made ... it came out, I've got transcripts of it, it was an illegal tap.

I was an accused in a departmental trial, they got the most senior magistrate, which always pulled the chestnuts out of the fire for them, as explained by Brigadier ^{(Pomn 1)} second in charge of security to my advocate ^{(Pomn 2)} and ^{(Pomn 3)} a well-known lawyer for human rights.

They got him to preside, it was one of the biggest police trials ever in history.

They got three policemen on the prosecution side, or three prosecutors on the prosecution side, one was a professor in law of the university, one was a captain in the police and one a brigadier.

And one of the witnesses, star witnesses:

Mister Craig Williamson.^{(Pomn 4)}

And eventually I was found guilty on four or five charges: behaving in a manner unbecoming to my rank.

But, of course, as ... to show generosity they allowed me to go off medically unfit out of the police. That's what they say, but I think their conscience started catching up with them: knowing that they were wrong and I was right.

I went off medical unfit out of the police force 1986-01-31, and up till this day, since 1986-01-31 I have my rank, luckily, as General Coetzee on pension, can still use his rank if I want to be so stupid to use it.

I receive a monthly police pension for the past ten years. I'm still on the police medical scheme, fully incorporated on the police medical scheme.

There's my card: Captain D. J. Coetzee with my wife and my child. PolMed. so the police still fully pay for my medical scheme, notwithstanding the fact that I'm working for national intelligence, which has got nothing to do with the police.

So I was never dishonourably discharged as they would like it to look.

After January 1986, when I was ... I took my medical unfit out of the police, I couldn't get a job.

Whenever I applied for a job, Johann Coetzee and ^{(Pomn 5)} interfered, and said ... because I was top qualified for private companies: dog handler, on the mines, security, I mean guys were just eager to take me, hell here's a guy that's got a lot of experience ... said

"Don't touch."

So I was doing a lot of piecemeal work until November 1989 when Almond Nofomela spoke on the night of 1989-11-19, an ex-colleague of mine, a black colleague of mine on Death Row, that was to be executed the next morning on the 20th, who stayed behind on Vlakplaas, who committed a lot of atrocities with ... after me there was Captain Jan Coetzee, then Brigadier  Jack Cronje ,^{(Pomn 6)} who is now testifying, then Gene de Kock (Pomn 7) came in as his second-in-charge, and then Gene eventually took over in June 1985.

He took over Vlakplaas, but was there until 1986, committing as well atrocities and one private murder. He went to murder a private ... illegalities

Personer omnämnda:

Pomn 1) Brigadier

Pomn 2) advocate

Pomn 3) well-known lawyer for human rights

Pomn 4) Craig Williamson

HB10658=>HBO10658

Pomn 5)

Pomn 6) Brigadier  Jack Cronje 

Pomn 7) Gene de Kock

- 5 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: ... 1985, yeah. They suspended me 1984. 1985 ... to get reinstated into the police force.

And then they quickly reacted and served me, because they had my phone on tap, which made ... it came out, I've got transcripts of it, it was an illegal tap.

I was an accused in a departmental trial, they got the most senior magistrate, which always pulled the chestnuts out of the fire for them, as explained by Brigadier ^{(Pomn 1)} second in charge of security to my advocate ^{(Pomn 2)} and ^{(Pomn 3)} a well-known lawyer for human rights.

They got him to preside, it was one of the biggest police trials ever in history.

They got three policemen on the prosecution side, or three prosecutors on the prosecution side, one was a professor in law of the university, one was a captain in the police and one a brigadier.

And one of the witnesses, star witnesses:

Mister Craig Williamson.^{(Pomn 4)}

And eventually I was found guilty on four or five charges: behaving in a manner unbecoming to my rank.

But, of course, as ... to show generosity they allowed me to go off medically unfit out of the police. That's what they say, but I think their conscience started catching up with them: knowing that they were wrong and I was right.

I went off medical unfit out of the police force 1986-01-31, and up till this day, since 1986-01-31 I have my rank, luckily, as General Coetzee on pension, can still use his rank if I want to be so stupid to use it.

I receive a monthly police pension for the past ten years. I'm still on the police medical scheme, fully incorporated on the police medical scheme.

There's my card: Captain D. J. Coetzee with my wife and my child. PolMed. so the police still fully pay for my medical scheme, notwithstanding the fact that I'm working for national intelligence, which has got nothing to do with the police.

So I was never dishonourably discharged as they would like it to look.

After January 1986, when I was ... I took my medical unfit out of the police, I couldn't get a job.

Whenever I applied for a job, Johann Coetzee and ^{(Pomn 5)} interfered, and said ... because I was top qualified for private companies: dog handler, on the mines, security, I mean guys were just eager to take me, hell here's a guy that's got a lot of experience ... said

"Don't touch."

So I was doing a lot of piecemeal work until November 1989 when Almond Nofomela spoke on the night of 1989-11-19, an ex-colleague of mine, a black colleague of mine on Death Row, that was to be executed the next morning on the 20th, who stayed behind on Vlakplaas, who committed a lot of atrocities with ... after me there was Captain Jan Coetzee, then Brigadier  Jack Cronje ,^{(Pomn 6)} who is now testifying, then Gene de Kock (Pomn 7) came in as his second-in-charge, and then Gene eventually took over in June 1985.

He took over Vlakplaas, but was there until 1986, committing as well atrocities and one private murder. He went to murder a private ... illegalities

Personer omnämnda:

Pomn 1) Brigadier

Pomn 2) advocate

Pomn 3) well-known lawyer for human rights

Pomn 4) Craig Williamson

HB10658=>HBO10658

Pomn 5)

Pomn 6) Brigadier  Jack Cronje 

Pomn 7) Gene de Kock

Redigera sida

- 6 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: inside the course of duty leads to illegalities outside the course of duty.

If I can commit ten murders for the police, why can't I commit one for myself?

If I can steal twenty cars for the police, why can't I steal one for myself?

And he eventually ... and they said:

"Keep your mouth shut, we will help you."

For two years while his appeal was running and he was on Death Row, said:

"Don't worry, don't worry",

till the afternoon of the nineteenth, they said:

"You must take your pains."

And the brigadier, Brigadier , who was Section C chief in my time said:

"Let him hang. He knows too much."

Then Almond Nofomela got hold of human rights, , the law society for human rights, and they got a late-night stay of execution.

Immediately, if you go to the archives, you will see and saying:

"This is an old trick of convicts to try and extend their lives. But we will investigate."

And they appointed who? .

With was the then CID chief, a former security policeman from Cape Town, Brigadier .... General , a two-man commission, and they incorporated on the Commission to do the writing and of course was the sweeper, as is clearly coming out now.

They then, notwithstanding the fact that  Almond Nofomela  mentioned my name first, said

"Whoa, don't hang me, I've got more to speak about. I want to talk about government's activities first. And Dirk Coetzee was my commander."

I think  Almond Nofomela  thought

"well maybe that will ... may assist."

So everyone made them a liar and they waited.

On the twentieth of October, the Friday morning, he spoke on the nineteenth of October 1989, twenty October 1989 the minister appointed the Commission. They immediately started their work and for two weeks they didn't call me.

So this little man on my shoulder said: "Hmm, you're going to be left for last, and if you ... the message to you is 'toe the line, stick with us and make  Almond Nofomela  a liar, or else ... or else we isolate you and make a scapegoat."

So when I heard that Gene de Kock has testified and he wasn't even there in my time, Wi
^(x) n, this blue-eyed boy out there, , has testified, I could see there was something coming.

I didn't have much to lose, so I said:

"The easy way out is just to say 'It's a lie. Almond Nofomela's a liar.

I would have been safe, for the time being. But I decided against it. I decided there was no way that I could spill the beans inside this country with its laws, with its apartheid judges, with its whole apartheid ... impossible!

So I decided to leave the country, make contact with the ANC, which I did through and , who was working for .

He made the contact with of the ANC Intelligence and they arranged, without any promises, that they would listen to my story, but that's

Personer omnämnda:

X) HB16609 ^{Referens behövs}

- 6 (26) -

- 6 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: inside the course of duty leads to illegalities outside the course of duty.

If I can commit ten murders for the police, why can't I commit one for myself?

If I can steal twenty cars for the police, why can't I steal one for myself?

And he eventually ... and they said:

"Keep your mouth shut, we will help you."

For two years while his appeal was running and he was on Death Row, said:

"Don't worry, don't worry",

till the afternoon of the nineteenth, they said:

"You must take your pains."

And the brigadier, Brigadier , who was Section C chief in my time said:

"Let him hang. He knows too much."

Then Almond Nofomela got hold of human rights, , the law society for human rights, and they got a late-night stay of execution.

Immediately, if you go to the archives, you will see and saying:

"This is an old trick of convicts to try and extend their lives. But we will investigate."

And they appointed who? .

With was the then CID chief, a former security policeman from Cape Town, Brigadier .... General , a two-man commission, and they incorporated on the Commission to do the writing and of course was the sweeper, as is clearly coming out now.

They then, notwithstanding the fact that  Almond Nofomela  mentioned my name first, said

"Whoa, don't hang me, I've got more to speak about. I want to talk about government's activities first. And Dirk Coetzee was my commander."

I think  Almond Nofomela  thought

"well maybe that will ... may assist."

So everyone made them a liar and they waited.

On the twentieth of October, the Friday morning, he spoke on the nineteenth of October 1989, twenty October 1989 the minister appointed the Commission. They immediately started their work and for two weeks they didn't call me.

So this little man on my shoulder said: "Hmm, you're going to be left for last, and if you ... the message to you is 'toe the line, stick with us and make  Almond Nofomela  a liar, or else ... or else we isolate you and make a scapegoat."

So when I heard that Gene de Kock has testified and he wasn't even there in my time, Wi
^(x) n, this blue-eyed boy out there, , has testified, I could see there was something coming.

I didn't have much to lose, so I said:

"The easy way out is just to say 'It's a lie. Almond Nofomela's a liar.

I would have been safe, for the time being. But I decided against it. I decided there was no way that I could spill the beans inside this country with its laws, with its apartheid judges, with its whole apartheid ... impossible!

So I decided to leave the country, make contact with the ANC, which I did through and , who was working for .

He made the contact with of the ANC Intelligence and they arranged, without any promises, that they would listen to my story, but that's

Personer omnämnda:

X) HB16609 ^{Referens behövs}

- 6 (26) -

Redigera sida

- 7 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: it.

So I then decided I'm going to take that way out.

No-one has then .... has yet contacted me, of the Commission, no-one.

But it now came out that they were investigating seriously: have I perhaps visited so they could say we conspired, we made up these stories. But I did not. I did not visit specifically.

So I then went to the ANC and I said:

"Listen, I can't run away all over the world to spill the beans while fleeing from the South African Government and the South African Police and the ANC. So I will have to go to someone.

If I went to the ANC, the people I did wrong and I said I'm sorry. If you will I will accept it, give me my back against a wall, I want to fight the system through the pen, because the pen is mightier than the sword.

You can't through ... I know the South African judicial system, I've lived with it. I could see things happening.

So I did not flee justice when I left the country on the fifth of November 1989, a Sunday morning. I flee injustice.

And from the first day that I left I said:

"I am prepared to come back and stand trial, but not alone: with the politicians and the generals who gave the orders."

I wrote those letters to F. W. de Klerk

I went then to Mauritius, first with , I gave him my whole story on tape and then on the eighth of November flew on to London, where I arrived on the ninth and met me and took me to the ANC.

I ... for three days I told my story to them just in brief, well in full but they just listened, they didn't put on any tapes or took any ... and then they decided to fly me out to Bulawayo in Zimbabwe, Harare Bulawayo on the sixteenth.

We left London on the fifteen of November and landed on the sixteenth and went straight on to Bulawayo.

But then blew the story on the seventeenth of November, the whole story to the world and in the first week of December the ANC debriefed me in detail, again it was , it was the eastern, the Phumalanga minister, it was who is now second in charge in NIA, he's the deputy director-general.

It was , who's also a very big guy in National Intelligence Agency now, and another guy, an attorney.

So I gave my whole story to them and then we flew on to Lusaka on the second of February 1990.

Actually on the third, the ANC was unbanned by F. W. de Klerk on the second of February 1990, but the Zimbabweans didn't want us to make a press release.

They were afraid of retaliation attacks, so we flew on to Lusaka and tried it there, but the Lusakan guys were also afraid.

Well I stayed until the seventh of December 1990, when I went to London.

Things went wrong in my household, with my wife: a young guy moved into the house and my two kids came out in July 1990, to join me.

And during that time, while in Lusaka 1990 I went for the Harms Commission to London in April 1990

- 7 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: it.

So I then decided I'm going to take that way out.

No-one has then .... has yet contacted me, of the Commission, no-one.

But it now came out that they were investigating seriously: have I perhaps visited so they could say we conspired, we made up these stories. But I did not. I did not visit specifically.

So I then went to the ANC and I said:

"Listen, I can't run away all over the world to spill the beans while fleeing from the South African Government and the South African Police and the ANC. So I will have to go to someone.

If I went to the ANC, the people I did wrong and I said I'm sorry. If you will I will accept it, give me my back against a wall, I want to fight the system through the pen, because the pen is mightier than the sword.

You can't through ... I know the South African judicial system, I've lived with it. I could see things happening.

So I did not flee justice when I left the country on the fifth of November 1989, a Sunday morning. I flee injustice.

And from the first day that I left I said:

"I am prepared to come back and stand trial, but not alone: with the politicians and the generals who gave the orders."

I wrote those letters to F. W. de Klerk

I went then to Mauritius, first with , I gave him my whole story on tape and then on the eighth of November flew on to London, where I arrived on the ninth and met me and took me to the ANC.

I ... for three days I told my story to them just in brief, well in full but they just listened, they didn't put on any tapes or took any ... and then they decided to fly me out to Bulawayo in Zimbabwe, Harare Bulawayo on the sixteenth.

We left London on the fifteen of November and landed on the sixteenth and went straight on to Bulawayo.

But then blew the story on the seventeenth of November, the whole story to the world and in the first week of December the ANC debriefed me in detail, again it was , it was the eastern, the Phumalanga minister, it was who is now second in charge in NIA, he's the deputy director-general.

It was , who's also a very big guy in National Intelligence Agency now, and another guy, an attorney.

So I gave my whole story to them and then we flew on to Lusaka on the second of February 1990.

Actually on the third, the ANC was unbanned by F. W. de Klerk on the second of February 1990, but the Zimbabweans didn't want us to make a press release.

They were afraid of retaliation attacks, so we flew on to Lusaka and tried it there, but the Lusakan guys were also afraid.

Well I stayed until the seventh of December 1990, when I went to London.

Things went wrong in my household, with my wife: a young guy moved into the house and my two kids came out in July 1990, to join me.

And during that time, while in Lusaka 1990 I went for the Harms Commission to London in April 1990

Redigera sida

- 8 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: on the twenty-first of April 1990 till the thirteenth of May.

Back to Lusaka and then on to the Lothar Neethling trial: our forensic general always gave the poison ... knockout drops, to testify in this case on the second of October 1990.

Whilst in ... preparing for the Harms Commission in April 1990, through Lawyers for Human Rights admitted an urgent information note to the Harms Commission who was then sitting appointed, when promised he would cut to the bone with each of these stories to the world, where he said they're dispatching a hit-squad, Vlakplaas, to take care of me in Zambia.

Harms, what could he do about it in any case?

But I then moved and went into hiding to prepare this document. Then on the second of October 19...

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Will you state which document you are talking about.

Dirk Coetzee: This document I am talking about is a document ... I knew I was going to be up against a wall of legal niceties and rules, that was not applicable at Vlakplaas, in the Harms Commission, so the document is ... it's unpublished manuscript, manuscript copyright reserved by the author.

Hit squads! 'Testimony of a South African security policeman, the full story, by Captain Dirk Coetzee'.

And it was finally ... when we went to London I think we were on page hundred and ... because the lawyers didn't want to listen and I was on page 125.

When I left what I did to my dear elusive comrade and with a personal note to him dated 20 April 1990.

We flew on to London because the lawyers did not want to listen to me.

I wanted to throw the judge with a book and the world press and says:

"There's my story."

We finished the document eventually on the twenty-first April 1990 whilst being in London, and it was updated just; no changes made to the text or words, it was just spelling mistakes corrected with a better word-processor in 1994, but I specifically stated: no changes was made.

On the second of October 1990 I received a parcel in Lusaka, which I did not want to receive. I said it because I used a specific post office box number, which only a few friends and family members of mine had, which was lifted by individual members and put through the X-rays to make sure there's nothing wrong with it, and then suddenly a parcel comes to the box and I laughed and I said:

"This is a bomb".

And it was indicated as coming from my ANC lawyer...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: We were disturbed by a telephone call and the interrogation was interrupted for two minutes. Yes, Mr Coetzee, please go on.

- 8 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: on the twenty-first of April 1990 till the thirteenth of May.

Back to Lusaka and then on to the Lothar Neethling trial: our forensic general always gave the poison ... knockout drops, to testify in this case on the second of October 1990.

Whilst in ... preparing for the Harms Commission in April 1990, through Lawyers for Human Rights admitted an urgent information note to the Harms Commission who was then sitting appointed, when promised he would cut to the bone with each of these stories to the world, where he said they're dispatching a hit-squad, Vlakplaas, to take care of me in Zambia.

Harms, what could he do about it in any case?

But I then moved and went into hiding to prepare this document. Then on the second of October 19...

ÅKL Jan Danielsson: Will you state which document you are talking about.

Dirk Coetzee: This document I am talking about is a document ... I knew I was going to be up against a wall of legal niceties and rules, that was not applicable at Vlakplaas, in the Harms Commission, so the document is ... it's unpublished manuscript, manuscript copyright reserved by the author.

Hit squads! 'Testimony of a South African security policeman, the full story, by Captain Dirk Coetzee'.

And it was finally ... when we went to London I think we were on page hundred and ... because the lawyers didn't want to listen and I was on page 125.

When I left what I did to my dear elusive comrade and with a personal note to him dated 20 April 1990.

We flew on to London because the lawyers did not want to listen to me.

I wanted to throw the judge with a book and the world press and says:

"There's my story."

We finished the document eventually on the twenty-first April 1990 whilst being in London, and it was updated just; no changes made to the text or words, it was just spelling mistakes corrected with a better word-processor in 1994, but I specifically stated: no changes was made.

On the second of October 1990 I received a parcel in Lusaka, which I did not want to receive. I said it because I used a specific post office box number, which only a few friends and family members of mine had, which was lifted by individual members and put through the X-rays to make sure there's nothing wrong with it, and then suddenly a parcel comes to the box and I laughed and I said:

"This is a bomb".

And it was indicated as coming from my ANC lawyer...

FHL Hans Ölvebro: We were disturbed by a telephone call and the interrogation was interrupted for two minutes. Yes, Mr Coetzee, please go on.

Redigera sida

- 9 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Okay. So no-one listened to me and in the end it was returned to the sender and as a well-known fact now it was blown up.

I then went to give evidence in London in the Lothar Neethling trial.

I came back to Zambia and finally left for London on the seventh of December, where I stayed until the fifth of July 1993, on the fourth of July and when I decided to just get on a plane and get back with no-one's permission.

And flied back notwithstanding the fact that the warrant of arrest was issued to me and is still open.

Either in December 1989 or January 1990 a warrant of arrest for murder on poor  Namn maskerat  was issued by Mr  Namn maskerat  I think was the advocate in Natal in those days. And still on file and has never been executed.

For my arrest recently like who's now ... a new round of arrests was made out.

I was then with the ANC in Shell House since the fifth of ... the fourth of July 1993, till first February 1995, when all the security establishments of the old homelands: Ciskei, Transkei, Venda and Bophuthatswana, with the PAC, with DIS, the ANC intelligence, with the old national intelligence was ... were incorporated into one body, namely the National Intelligence Agency, where I got a job as section commander on subversion and terrorism. Can you believe it?

And when ... where I was suspended during my arrest. All civil servants in South Africa, if you are charged criminally you must be suspended from duty.

So I am suspended at the moment from duty since about ... I don't know, say May-June this year, pending my criminal charge, my criminal trial which will proceed in Durban, the east coast down in South Africa, in the Supreme Court, 'A' Supreme Court, court number 'A', put down from the second to the thirteenth of December.

The charges are murder and robbery. The deceased is , but in the meantime the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has interfered and my hearing on this specific case will be from fourth to eighth November in Durban next month: Monday a week. And that is where I am sitting at the moment.

As far as the Olof Palme stories is concerned: about two years ago, eighteen months to two years ago, a guy was referred to me by  Namn maskerat  ^{(Pomn 1)} I think he was deputy president of the ANC at the time.

He had a secretary,  Namn maskerat , ^{(Pomn 2)} there's a phone number in Johannesburg,

Referred a guy by the name of Boris Ersson^{(Pomn 3)} to me, who had the blessing of the ANC, because I was then still with the ANC, I was not yet in National Intelligence.

That he can speak to me, he's allowed to speak to me and give ... gave him permission.

He originally only wanted about a one-hour, two-hour interview, but it ended up staying for two and a half days, and we ended up at Vlakplaas after he got permission to go to Vlakplaas with me.

And then in the by-pass on camera while we were doing this interview he asked me whether I knew anything

Personer omnämnda:

HB16609 PM Sydafrika Riian Stander, källa A

Pomn1): , deputy president of the ANC

Pomn 2): , secretary

Pomn 3): Boris Ersson

- 9 (26) -

Dirk Coetzee: Okay. So no-one listened to me and in the end it was returned to the sender and as a well-known fact now it was blown up.

I then went to give evidence in London in the Lothar Neethling trial.

I came back to Zambia and finally left for London on the seventh of December, where I stayed until the fifth of July 1993, on the fourth of July and when I decided to just get on a plane and get back with no-one's permission.

And flied back notwithstanding the fact that the warrant of arrest was issued to me and is still open.

Either in December 1989 or January 1990 a warrant of arrest for murder on poor  Namn maskerat  was issued by Mr  Namn maskerat  I think was the advocate in Natal in those days. And still on file and has never been executed.

For my arrest recently like who's now ... a new round of arrests was made out.

I was then with the ANC in Shell House since the fifth of ... the fourth of July 1993, till first February 1995, when all the security establishments of the old homelands: Ciskei, Transkei, Venda and Bophuthatswana, with the PAC, with DIS, the ANC intelligence, with the old national intelligence was ... were incorporated into one body, namely the National Intelligence Agency, where I got a job as section commander on subversion and terrorism. Can you believe it?

And when ... where I was suspended during my arrest. All civil servants in South Africa, if you are charged criminally you must be suspended from duty.

So I am suspended at the moment from duty since about ... I don't know, say May-June this year, pending my criminal charge, my criminal trial which will proceed in Durban, the east coast down in South Africa, in the Supreme Court, 'A' Supreme Court, court number 'A', put down from the second to the thirteenth of December.

The charges are murder and robbery. The deceased is , but in the meantime the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has interfered and my hearing on this specific case will be from fourth to eighth November in Durban next month: Monday a week. And that is where I am sitting at the moment.

As far as the Olof Palme stories is concerned: about two years ago, eighteen months to two years ago, a guy was referred to me by  Namn maskerat  ^{(Pomn 1)} I think he was deputy president of the ANC at the time.

He had a secretary,  Namn maskerat , ^{(Pomn 2)} there's a phone number in Johannesburg,

Referred a guy by the name of Boris Ersson^{(Pomn 3)} to me, who had the blessing of the ANC, because I was then still with the ANC, I was not yet in National Intelligence.

That he can speak to me, he's allowed to speak to me and give ... gave him permission.

He originally only wanted about a one-hour, two-hour interview, but it ended up staying for two and a half days, and we ended up at Vlakplaas after he got permission to go to Vlakplaas with me.

And then in the by-pass on camera while we were doing this interview he asked me whether I knew anything

Personer omnämnda:

HB16609 PM Sydafrika Riian Stander, källa A

Pomn1): , deputy president of the ANC

Pomn 2): , secretary

Pomn 3): Boris Ersson